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 The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-

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joefrank
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PostSubject: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:13 am

7/8

                  


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Subject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Yesterday at 9:56 pm   


7/7

               I think certain radicals in the group have gone way over the line !
               Why doesn't everyone in this country as they say cut the crap ! We
               have more important things to deal with, I just read that they want 
               to cut the military by 40,000 not only will they be out of a job but all
               the business near bases will got out of business is the Federal Govt.
               lost it's mind ? We will be un-protected , once we were the mightest
               military in the world, now I'll have to call Shelagh to ask the British
               PM for help ! We need protection..

                                                                 Love Joe


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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:47 am

The cuts are necessary because there isn't enough money to pay for Obamacare. You might find this interesting, Joe: 

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2015/02/01/5-ways-the-middle-class-is-getting-screwed-n1951126/page/full

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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:58 am

7/8

       Shelagh..

                    I have to send this article to a friend of mine, it knocked my 
                    socks off, very good article, thanks..

                                                        Cheers.Joe..... Very Happy
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:02 am

Unfortunately the article is very well written.  It skates around its facts and includes half the story.  In every situation, there are balances to every negative statistic quoted.  

There are multiple solutions to societal issues that no political party will tackle.  Therefore, legislation is cobbled together and blame is something that can be dished in every political direction.  The primary goal of legislators is to get re-elected.  Therefore, they pander to the fears and hatreds of the electorate, seeking an emotional vote because they have no accomplishments to stand on.

Every developed country in the world has universal healthcare, even many third world countries.  No program, even the wonderful care in Germany, is perfect.  The only perfect health care is that afforded by the wealthiest in the world who can travel anywhere and pay for the best known care - and you know what - money only goes so far.  The wealthy die eventually also.

Of course there are initial costs, but the long term savings in the health of the nation and its workers will more than cover those initial issues and glitches that need fixing. Everyone has their pet issue that affects them. 

My mom went to the ER room in the hospital for critical pains in her abdomen.  She was admitted.  The cost for her three day stay was $35,000 with zero surgery and on a sugar drip the whole time.  There is the cost of medical care - in that $3,000 visit to the emergency room and $32,000 for three days in the hospital.  Those costs are passed into the the profitable insurance industry to keep private businesses part of the system instead of a single pay system where cost controls are more likely.

As for the immigrants.  That's a straw man issue.  When they started sending immigrants home the jobs they did went begging.  No white person would work on the roofs in 120 temperatures laying tar.  No white person would work in the fields in the pesticides and hot temperatures for 12 hour days six days a week.  They tried.  They tried putting the unemployed on buses to take them to the jobs and they got ill - it was forced labor.

Every immigrant group that has arrived in this country came to do jobs the existing superior class would not do.  Funny thing, they were industrious and moved into the mainstream.  If the white folk would have done the work in the first place, they wouldn't be shocked by the changing demographics.  Nobody immigrates to a place with less opportunities.  Period.  The employers also import plenty of high end computer type folk and special skills folks that they claim they can't find in the U.S. with special visas.  They can better find immigrants who are willing to take the lesser pay for the higher skill.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:27 am

Excellent DK.
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:44 pm

dkchristi wrote:
Unfortunately the article is very well written.
 
It is.

Quote :
Of course there are initial costs, but the long term savings in the health of the nation and its workers will more than cover those initial issues and glitches that need fixing.

No, unfortunately, free healthcare makes people less likely to lead a healthy lifestyle and more likely to depend on medical assistance to fix their ailments.

Quote :
My mom went to the ER room in the hospital for critical pains in her abdomen.  She was admitted.  The cost for her three day stay was $35,000 with zero surgery and on a sugar drip the whole time.  There is the cost of medical care - in that $3,000 visit to the emergency room and $32,000 for three days in the hospital.  Those costs are passed into the the profitable insurance industry to keep private businesses part of the system instead of a single pay system where cost controls are more likely.

An unprofitable insurance industry would stop providing insurance cover, and your mother would be left to pay her hospital bills.

Quote :
As for the immigrants.  That's a straw man issue.  When they started sending immigrants home the jobs they did went begging.  No white person would work on the roofs in 120 temperatures laying tar.  No white person would work in the fields in the pesticides and hot temperatures for 12 hour days six days a week.  They tried.  They tried putting the unemployed on buses to take them to the jobs and they got ill - it was forced labor.

Every immigrant group that has arrived in this country came to do jobs the existing superior class would not do.  Funny thing, they were industrious and moved into the mainstream.  If the white folk would have done the work in the first place, they wouldn't be shocked by the changing demographics.  Nobody immigrates to a place with less opportunities.  Period.  The employers also import plenty of high end computer type folk and special skills folks that they claim they can't find in the U.S. with special visas.  They can better find immigrants who are willing to take the lesser pay for the higher skill.

It isn't the low paid immigrants in low paid jobs that cause friction; it is their offspring with college degrees seeking good jobs in a saturated market that cause the aggravation. It shouldn't be that way, but it is.

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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:10 pm

Unfortunately, their offspring were forbidden to seek employment or affordable college educations unless born in the U.S., which most of them were not.  Only in recent years were those who spent their lives in U.S. education systems allowed affordable college education and the opportunity to work.  
Before the last year or so, they were left to graduate high school and done except for under the table work - which they did create aplenty.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:21 pm

A good healthcare system gives attention to preventive medicine.  Often the patient will wait and hope it gets better and when it doesn't, they wind up at the emergency room.  Not only is that the most costly, but much damage may have been caused by waiting.  The costs of dealing with the malady are increased.
Those opposed to universal healthcare cite unproven theories that if it is free, they will spend too much time at the doctors office.  They also talk about waiting in long lines for care, all intended to prevent universal coverage.

Where I live and where everyone has healthcare, men are the worst offenders of not seeking help.  There are always exceptions especially with "old ladies" who like to be pampered and also find sitting in the doctors office a social event.  One should not generalize and draw conclusions based on the few who may abuse a system.  In the case of my wife and me, without the healthcare system we would either be dead and/or financially destitute.  Those who oppose universal care either have a good plan offered by their employer.  When they become unemployed, their attitude changes.
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:55 am

Abe F. March wrote:
A good healthcare system gives attention to preventive medicine.  Often the patient will wait and hope it gets better and when it doesn't, they wind up at the emergency room.  Not only is that the most costly, but much damage may have been caused by waiting.  The costs of dealing with the malady are increased.
Those opposed to universal healthcare cite unproven theories that if it is free, they will spend too much time at the doctors office.  They also talk about waiting in long lines for care, all intended to prevent universal coverage.

Where I live and where everyone has healthcare, men are the worst offenders of not seeking help.  There are always exceptions especially with "old ladies" who like to be pampered and also find sitting in the doctors office a social event.  One should not generalize and draw conclusions based on the few who may abuse a system.  In the case of my wife and me, without the healthcare system we would either be dead and/or financially destitute.  Those who oppose universal care either have a good plan offered by their employer.  When they become unemployed, their attitude changes.

Missed appointments and unused medication in the UK cost the NHS more than a billion pounds:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33375976

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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:02 pm

Education must be part of a healthcare system.  There must also be checks and balances and rebalancing when flaws exist.  That's the problem with most government programs.  Once in motion, that's it.  There's little correction along the way and monitoring becomes very boring and burdensome.  I hate the fact that the U.S. food stamp program costs more to search out the fraud (which is minimal anyway but does exist) than the fraud actually costs the system.  Thus the monitoring for fraud is minimal.  It can be compared to the auto industry that figured the cost of paying for a certain number of deaths was less than the cost of correcting the safety item.  Numbers are numbers.

I think it's actually easier to set up universal healthcare in countries where physicians aren't headed for $million careers.  In a single payer system, the flat payments to all medical personal are more rational  than the costs in the U.S.  

I am not familiar with universal care in any other country.  I know our current ACA does not meet my estimation of what such a system should be.  I believe that adding another layer to our system was ridiculous.  The Medicare system works well.  We should have folded the rest of the uninsured into the Medicare system.  That's just too logical for it to have happened - too many vested interests everywhere fighting for their turf.

Then we have these multi-insurance systems to provide business involvement in a competitive way - and the insurance companies are merging right and left, creating a single payer monopoly of insurance plans even if we don't have a single payer system. 

How do I see universal medical care?  Clinics on every corner just like the MInute clinics currently in our CVS pharmacies.  A place to go with colds, flu, ordinary sprains, breaks, rashes, and all the common stuff.  Physicians assistants and nurse practitioners would man them.  Also the place for vaccinations, blood tests, blood pressure checks, diabetes management and nutrition and lifestyle classes and guidance.

Every person would be required to take the nutrition and lifestyle classes before accessing full insurance premiums.  The classes could be available online, like drivers' license classes.  A referral from a clinic would be required for higher level care.  Stand by emergency vehicles would be parked at the clinics. Physician contact provided via Skype type system.

Emergency rooms at hospitals for true life or death emergencies. 

Ran out of energy.  Feel free to continue for me.
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Fri Jul 10, 2015 10:20 pm

It is unfortunate that Americans feel their situation is unique.  Similar problems exist in most democracies.  Learning what works and what doesn't can eliminate much costly trial and error attempts to create a system.  Why one refuses to learn from another is a puzzle.  Is it part of the psyche to claim that "it was my (our) idea?" 
Sharing things that work benefits everyone.  Although our system worked in the past doesn't mean it will continue to work in the future.  When the citizen or the patient is given consideration, the methods in treating them must be adjusted.  The rich are the most visible target and are getting attacked.  Much of that attention is deserved.  As with most stories, there are two sides and the truth (solution) lies somewhere in the middle. 
There is no solution that will last.  Technology has changed how we work and live.  As that continues to change, how we deal with it requires adjustment/change.
Many condemn ACA dubbed Obama Care.  It is felt that the Obama Care dub was an effort to make it fail.  It is not perfect and requires years of tweaking to make it work.  The mistake IMV is that a new system was attempted when there exists systems that work.  Arrogance continues to defeat a good concept. 
If people are sick they can't work even if they can find a job.  If they must find a job to get coverage for healthcare, it is destined to fail.  There is no quick fix.  Being aware of the problem will help to work for a solution.  The greatest problem to all this are those fighting a program because of politics or simply, arrogance.  Social programs are needed. How to pay for them is a perpetual challenge.

Do we need an economy doctor?  Just as research in medicine is important, so is research in economic matters.  As our world changes, we must be prepared to change (tweak) the system to adapt.
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Sat Jul 11, 2015 1:20 pm

We are losing a number of troops from WA basses.
Wish they could fix our roads and bridges.
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:08 pm

The first and most important job of the federal government is to protect the citizenry through a strong military. Everything else EVERYTHING ELSE is secondary.

I have other pressing things to get to so I'll be very brief on the recurring illegal immigration theme. I'm frankly tired of the recurring theme hammered out every time illegal immigration is discussed that tries to argue that the current crop of illegal immigrants are the same as legal immigrants in the past. DK writes that "Every immigrant group that has arrived in this country came to do jobs the existing superior class would not do.  Funny thing, they were industrious and moved into the mainstream." That is largely true, but the statement misses two major critical points: First, immigrants in the past did not get the aid that they do today from federal and state governments and were not, thus, a drain on the economy. They came here to work, to make a better future for themselves and their families, not to live off the dole. Too many legal and illegal immigrants today come here to take advantage of the generosity of our system. Second, immigrants in the past were glad to assimilate into American culture. They learned English, learned about America, adopted her values and took great pride in seeing themselves as AMERICANS SANS HYPHENS that accentuate not their new country but their primary allegiance to the old one. They did not come here making demands that society change to accommodate them; they changed to accommodate the mores of their adopted home, grateful for the privilege to do so. These are critical distinctions.

Another major difference is that throughout much of our history, America needed fresh blood first for its Westward expansion and then for the dynamic growth brought forth by the industrial revolution. Jobs abounded for strong people with little formal training who were willing to work hard shoveling coal into hungry furnaces that were never sated, working on railroads, factories and in construction. These jobs no longer exists. America needed unskilled, hard working laborers; she no longer has any need for them as  once menial, low-paying jobs are now scarce (and generally pay well).

A sane immigration policy requires securing our borders and attracting workers with skills and abilities we need rather than those that need us or who happen to live within easy reach of our revolving-door borders. Illegal immigration is a very real problem. If we choose to ignore it, we will become Greece in a couple of generations. We are well on the way there--as is all of Europe.
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:57 pm

As in all things, one's experience guides one's opinions.  As a five-county Director for the Farmworker Jobs and Education Program I had access to the statistics and to Washington, D.C. regarding Mexican illegal and legal immigrants.  Whenever "illegal immigrants" is bandied about, just like Donald Trump, they mean those dark-skinned people from Mexico who not only don't speak English, they are illiterate in their own language.

My colleagues were from every state in the nation, also working with legal and illegal immigrants.  We met by phone and in regional meetings and with representatives in Washington, D. C. I give all this info because our group experience with people coming to the U.S. across the Mexican border is that they came to work at the invitation of agriculture (that posted large, bright billboards in the small towns everywhere in Central America and emptied those small towns of all the men so that the women and children fended for themselves except for the checks regularly mailed from the U.S.).

Those migrant and seasonal farmworkers did in fact work jobs that no white U.S. citizen would work, in the pesticides, hot son and per bucket wages that an entire family worked to make enough to live - and true - live a better life than the stark poverty from which they came.  Most were uneducated and not sophisticated enough to seek that precious Federal and state help that they supposedly bankrupted.  If they were aware, they were scared to get it, died in their hovels of starvation before they would get it - for fear of deportation of their illegal relatives.

They lived in shacks and dormitories where you wouldn't let your dog sleep, women, men, young men, children, - all in the same buildings sharing the same pitiful showers and toilets with no privacy, resulting in crimes toward women and girls.  They had no latrines in the fields until states passed some laws just recently to deliver porto podies to the fields.  Some other laws allowed the fieldworkers to leave the fields during the worst pesticide sprays.  But it did not matter, the ground was also soaked with chemicals.  If their families were not in the fields, they took those chemicals home to them.  Babies were born deformed.

The busses picked them up at gathering points they rode to on bicycles, departing by busses at 7:00 a.m. in the morning.  They left the fields at dark and returned back to the gathering points by bus to ride the bicycles to their barracks, shacks, decrepit trailers and whatever dwellings they might even rent, several families at exorbitant rents.  Dwellings full of roaches and pestilence and filth, often cooking on a hot plate and no refrigeration.  I saw those dwellings.  I spent weekends with those families.  They refused help.  They had jobs.  They did not want help. They were afraid of anything that smelled of "government" often from countries where "government" also meant death and imprisonment.

When they needed government assistance and starved by not seeking it, dying of disease and lack of medical care, was after the crack down when the families were ripped apart and deported and employers were fined and couldn't hire them.  Here they were. No job.  No way home.  No hope. And still, they did not seek government services.

For the good of the communities, health professionals went into the fields to vaccinate children and adults and seek out pregnant mothers to help them have healthy children, enforce laws that required children to be in school.  Churches and literacy groups provided English language tutoring. 

My program served legal migrant and seasonal farmworkers and helped them get the services they deserved through education and employment at workplaces that paid a fare wage and in other occupations.  They paid income taxes, often ripped off by the tax preparers because they didn't speak enough English to do it without help.  They would get "refund" loans they could never pay back because of exorbitant rates of interest.

Every Mexican person in my employ and that I knew in the community and five counties in which I worked was devout as a Catholic or Protestant and had family values that made the vocal religious right look downright poorly in that regard.  Family was before everything except God and Jesus Christ.  They were grateful for every kindness.  They helped each other.  I cannot say enough - and that was six years working with Mexican immigrants and other nationalities that came through the borders and also a significant population from Haiti - also with the same strong values.

Well, we no longer have an immigrant problem.  Check the real stats.  Employers are using legal systems to import what they can, but the price of legal immigrants is higher than they wish to pay so the fields go fallow.  Look at the importation by the tech companies of skilled workers who are taking jobs from our own college graduates who expect higher rates of pay so they can pay back their college loans and expenses.  Now, there are two very real issues - the cost of a college education and the replacement of our educated graduates in tech and sciences with imports from other nations where their governments paid for their education.

We have a habit in this country of misplacing the blame.  Let's blame those without a voice, the illiterate, Spanish-speaking Mexican fieldworker, the children, the disabled, the homeless and even the elderly.  Forget that it was the industrialized farmer that enticed the illegal immigrants here in the first place, often at the mercy of those they paid to get here and the origins of the slave trade in household workers, field workers and prostitution.

And then let's put the blame squarely where it really belongs - a country so greedy in having it all that the price of food is the lowest of any industrialized, modern state at the expense of those who came here to make sure it's on our table.  By having low cost food, we can buy another cell phone or gadget or newer car.  Our struggle to keep prices low for our throw-away lifestyle helped send our manufacturing overseas to feed our constant renewal of products.

Let's put some more blame on Madison Avenue, the media, and marketing in general that teaches us from birth to desire more and be less satisfied all the time.  So, when we struggle in our economy, we cut not our own desires and wants, but the necessities of our children and others who struggle for the basics in life.  We revere not the Pope who is the first Pope that I have ever felt was truly representing Jesus Christ, or the humanitarians but instead the wealthiest people in the world regardless of how they accumulated their wealth. 

Because we attribute wealth to success - we blame those without it as being deficient, less hard working, lazier.  We want to be like Donald Trump so we admire Donald Trump, regardless of what comes out of his mouth and the deep seeded prejudices and bias that is in his very fiber. Until we repair our own personal values and seek a life of less material excess and more spiritual compassion, we have no business blaming people who come here from nothing and work their bodies to death to give hope to their families.

If our welfare system is so expensive, then let's examine it and make improvements in how we serve the needy so they have real jobs and real hope and educational opportunities. Let's put real people out there instead of computer sign ups. Let's make sure the IRS is revamped to provide a more equitable distribution of taxing according to the benefits received by the citizens and corporations of this great U.S. Let's revamp campaign expenditures and redirect the excessive funding toward those in need.  With just the next election we could stamp out "lack of food security" in our own nation.  Isn't that a laugh - give it a fancy name so you don't picture children and elderly starving.  My stepmom was surviving on horrible food to pay for her medicines.  She qualified for meals on wheels but they were so salty her blood pressure sky rocketed.  I didn't know until I went to her fridge for a drink and found only cans of some off brand slim fast.  I thought she had meals on wheels and some sort of support for her medicines.  I was wrong. She must have weighed all of a hundred pounds.

I'm sure someone can tear this apart as it is written with emotion and passion and not with my stats in front of me as I should.  Those on this forum are compassionate and loving people but I can't sit by and have misinformation continue because it is fashionable and the talk of FOX.
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:22 pm

I've done more than a fair share of research on this particular issue and published two papers in double-blind peer reviewed law journals on the subject. Illegal immigrants hail from all over the world, not just Mexico, and come in all colors, races and religions. Yes, the vast majority of illegals come from Mexico, as do the vast majority of legal immigrants, by the way, and yes many are exploited. But it is a myth that all illegal immigrants are "doing the jobs no American will do." True, Americans won't do the hard, thankless, painful work of agricultural day laborers for sub-minimum wages; they would do them for reasonable wages and reasonable working conditions, though, were these salaries not artificially kept down by illegal immigrants willing to do them for illegally low wages off the books. But Illegal immigrants are employed across all sectors of business and industry--from lawyers, to university professors to doctors, engineers, and down the line--I've published these stats as well, though no one will quote them, especially in the popular media. A disproportionate number are being exploited by unscrupulous businesses that pay them little and treat them poorly. But a very significant number of illegal immigrants are very well paid, very well employed and doing jobs that many legal immigrants and citizens alike would very much like to have. This is not my opinion, but facts from government and other sources cited in my research.

There may well be some individuals who target illegal aliens out of racism, xenophobia or other nefarious reasons. That's besides the point. Whether illegal immigrants are white, black, brown, yellow, red, or purple with yellow polka dots, they are here taking jobs that they are not entitled to have, in violation of our laws, and are a drain on our economy--the latter is also a seldom reported fact, and not my opinion despite contrary opinions reported in the media pulled from thin air.

Immigration reform needs to take place. But it cannot take place without first securing our borders. Our immigration laws are far more generous than those of most other nations--and absolutely far more generous than Mexico's own immigration laws to their own needier neighbors to the South in Central and South America. Yes I researched that too; it is fact, not my opinion.

The vast majority of Mexican illegal and legal immigrants are honest, honorable, law abiding people who want the same thing we all want: a better life for our families. No reasonable person disputes that--and that is no less true of immigrants from most everywhere else on earth as well. The problem is that with illegal immigrants, we have no way of weeding out the criminal elements--the murderers, rapists, gang bangers, drug dealers and common criminals that daily walk over the border and into both sanctuary cities and a neighborhood near you just as easily as their more numerous hard working compatriots.

There is no fairness involved in providing the chance at the American dream only to those who cut the line while cutting back on the legal immigrants we admit because we are already flooded by some 12 million or so (no one knows the exact number since we don't really do much about identifying them, let alone counting them) unwelcomed and uninvited "guests".
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:00 am

Wow.  The posts by DK & Victor sheds much light on the immigration issue.  Europe is going through a similar struggle with so-called "migrants".  I mention that briefly in my latest post on prayer.

What about the inscription on The Statue of Liberty?

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses, yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,
Send these, the homeless, tempest tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

I read nothing in that referring to legal or illegal.  It is a blanket welcome.

As for America continue to spend money on military might while depriving the needy with care, I am reminded of the Preamble to the Constitution: 
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

I refer you to "promote the general Welfare".  What does that mean?  Would that not include healthcare and social security?
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Number of posts : 8592
Registration date : 2008-12-29
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Loss Of Our Troops in 2016 40,000-   Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:47 am

Thanks. The topuc is a great emotion anchor to distract us from our failures in job creation and more. When well informed people see such wide differences in philosophy and facts imagine how the less informed can be influenced especially since it is a topic that feeds fear and bias.
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