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 I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...

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joefrank
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PostSubject: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:31 am

6/29

                I read this on Face Book, this Minister his wife just died, he has two raise
                two children and he has a grandfather he loves dearly, I believe this 
                happened in Virginia , he found this note on his car, this is the most
                hateful thing I have ever read, read it and wonder..

                                                        Cheers..Joe
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:02 pm

Joe, it is disgusting.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:14 pm

6/29

                         People call themselves Christians ?


                                  Cheers..Joe
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:08 pm

It could be a hoax to stir up emotions, which it does.  However, as a talking piece, it does reflect the fanatical hate that people have who turn to their religion as the only truth in the world.  It is the same hate that drives the Islamic fanatics who are armed and dangerous. 

Once again, I ask the question:  Do we want people of religious persuasions putting their hate and intolerance into law for everyone?  Anyone who votes republican needs to keep this in mind.  Perhaps it is not the person voting who is so radical in their religious beliefs, but the candidate they vote for may be governed by others who are.

I have felt the hate emotion before and worked diligently to pray it away.  Literally, sometimes one just has to get down on knees and meditate or do whatever takes one to that quiet place where we can hear the voice of reason.

People consumed with hate are not spiritually evolved or there would be no room for such hate.  Spiritually evolved people work at finding the good in the world and contributing to peace and harmony.  They are accepting of differences whether they fit with the belief system of the moment or not.  Many Christians are spiritually evolved, like those precious people who have gone through such horror in Charleston and forgive - because a hateful heart for any reason only destroys the hater. It is not one's religion, but how one evolves spiritually within that religion, that makes the difference.

On the Confederate Flag matter, I heard the son of former senator Strom Thurmond needing to explain how he could change his mind regarding the Confederate Flag.  He said he felt in his heart that it represented beliefs that he didn't hold.  He talked it over with his wife and they concluded that there was no reason to value a symbol that represented hate to so many.  He also said he had to be concerned about his safety because so many people held such strong beliefs that his opinion was wrong and that his father would not agree. 

He said to make a stand on unpopular issues required courage because it was a risk.  Yet, to stand for something, such risks had to be taken.  That's one republican politician I respect.  I know nothing about him except that he has stood with courage and changed his opinion because it was the right thing to do in a state where his life could be threatened for such a stand.  And this is America, land of freedom - freedom apparently to control others and force them to one's fanatical beliefs or put them in fear. 

A

Since matter remains constant, just changing in form, what we put out in our energy field will come back to us in some way if only in the pain a hateful heart carries or the joy instead.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:40 pm

6/29

                           DK..

                                  The story is true and the minister has left Face Book in fear
      for his children, his father, I don't blame him one bit, I'm sure you have seen
      in the last few days on Face Book the hatred that has spewed out when Gay Rights
      bewcame the law of the land are these people crazy or what? No one wants to stop
      them from what they believe in..

                                                          Cheers....Joe....... Very Happy
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:21 pm

Joe, sometimes I erase what I post here because Google picks these posts up sometimes and they show up in a name search on Google.  I fear that some nut case might read some strong opinion and try to find the author and eliminate the author.

The Internet has brought everyone, good and evil, in close contact with everyone of all persuasions and those who are off the deep end have lots of food for their mill of hate.

I for sure quite posting on Facebook as I was badly treated their during the elections.
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 2:55 pm

Joe,

Truly religious (or spiritual) people could never write such filth, any more than honorable atheists could. Only morally corrupt cowards misusing religion to justify their small-minded hatred, prejudice, and ignorance could do so. Just like the small percentage of Islamist terrorists who misrepresent their religion and taint the teachings of their true faith with their hubris, hatred and ignorance, the small but unbearably obnoxious extremist Christians (and Jews, Muslims and wingnuts in every other religion) deface their faith with their self-righteous, prideful hatred, rendered all the more obscene for being presented as "the will of God."

I opposed and still oppose gay marriage and believe the majority of the Supreme Court justices got the decision wrong. I support civil unions with EVERY SINGLE PRIVILEGE of marriage but for the name. My views are no less or more valid than those of the Supreme Court Justices with whom I agree or disagree, though I am on the losing side on this legal argument. But whatever my views on the subject, or those of anyone else, one thing is perfectly clear to me and I would hope to every thinking, rational human being: God loves us all EQUALLY--lesbian, gay, bisexual, trans gendered, and straight, if we are men and women of good will. If acting on gay and lesbian impulses is a sin (and I believe it is not, if one acts based on love rather than lust--the same rule that applies to "straight" sex in my book), that is for God to decide. The intrinsic value of every human every being's character may be judged on a great many criteria; one's sexual preference for males, females of both is not one of them and has never been for me.

The character of one who would misuse religion to rub salt in the wounds of another human being afflicted by the illness or death of a loved one is an abomination, and ascribing to God the evil intent of visiting tragedy on one of his beloved children because of his/her sexual preference, or because of his or her performing a marriage ceremony in accordance to the law is nothing short of blasphemous for me. When I recite the words "And deliver us from evil" in The Lord's Prayer every night I am asking God to shield my loved ones and me not only from "the evil one" but from all those who would do us harm. That most certainly includes people with mindsets like that expressed in the letter. 

I have no doubt that if I ever earn entry into the Pearly gates, I will find many gay and straight friends there; I am doubly sure there will be no idiots there like the author(s) of the letter.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 8:21 pm

Wow Victor that was grand. That is how differing views need to be presented
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:44 pm

What DK said.  Enjoyed you post.
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:37 am

I have stopped reading anything posted with the rainbow overlay on the poster's avatar. My feed page is a constant flow of bickering, which I do not wish to read. "Straight Pride" is emerging to counteract "Gay Pride" and dividing the two groups. This was an unevitable consequence of eleven justlces deciding for 300 million people. The gay community were given their pound of flesh, but much blood has been spilt to pay for it. As for me, it isn't my fight. I battled against same sex marriage vociferously. I had my say and will now step aside, and take no part in the aftermath.

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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:57 am

I am opposed to gay activity.  However I am stymied by them.  Evidently they are born that way and cannot help it.  God will be their judge, not me.
Why would they want a preacher for their wedding who would not bless them?
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:25 am

God has already judged his creation perfect in every way, made in God's own image - which is a complex image indeed to incorporate all the variations in humanity that occur in the world.  We see the world through eyes and ears that are trained by our culture - the culture that gives us our religion - and what we see and believe is only a speck of the reality created by a magnificent God of the universe.

I have no right to judge any human being.  I only have the right to protect myself and those I love from behaviors that are threatening to their existence in a quality life.

There are many things in the world that make me uncomfortable and ways of living that I do not wish to experience.  However, those people were born into their skin, their way of life, their beliefs - and hold to them as right for them as strongly as I hold to the beliefs that are right for me.  I don't have to experience those things I abhor.  I fortunately live in a country where I have the freedom to speak, to move, to change my way of life - all without fear of recrimination.  I expect the same rights to be given everyone in the U.S.A.

I believe there is no "sin" because that is a judgment of man's creation, not of my God.  Man writes into his books what he thinks is sinful and against the small piece of God he believes he understands - and even believes he hears.  There are mistakes, errors, omissions, terrible deeds, heinous acts - but they all occur in this universe that is beyond understanding and may have a purpose unknown to me in the grand harmonious scheme of things.

My God is not God of judgment or retribution but rather a God of love and compassion. We live our lives within our minds more than anything else.  The more we clean up our minds and find love and compassion there the better we will be able to enjoy the wonders of this universe provided to us.  If we waste time condemning and damning the things that are not of our understanding, the less time we have to find and enjoy those things that are meaningful to us.

When I heard the Supreme Court's opinion, I actually had tears.  Tears in compassion for those people to whom that decision made their lives and their existence whole.  No, it is not a way of life that would be appropriate for me.  But I am not anointed by God to judge how other adults choose to live their lives.  Their choice of lifestyle has no impact on my life except to know that other human beings have found joy in that moment and see hope that they understand in their future.

The religious zealots that set out to make this set of individuals to appear the scum of the earth and sinners, let he with no sin as they define it throw the first stone.  They need to go back to their pulpits and preach love, tolerance, understanding, peace, acceptance, love, compassion and the real text of Jesus Christ who loved everyone even though he was angry at times with some behaviors.

I have found the most damning people are those with their own minds swimming with thoughts that their religion has taught them are wrong and sinful.  Thus, they hide their own shortcomings by going after what they believe is someone elses - push the attention to some other poor soul. 

There are many things I do not believe should happen on this earth, but those are my beliefs from my understanding of the world - a very tiny understanding at that.  I can speak my beliefs, but I cannot force anyone else to believe them.  I cannot even live up to them.

I strongly believe that the human body is a perfect gift and imbued with some type of spiritual energy that connects all humanity.  I believe this gift should be cared for with proper diet and exercise and attitude to the extent of the life it's given.  I have attempted to live my life with that idea, but often fail miserably. Thus, because of my belief, I should judge all those others who fail miserably in caring for their gift as sinful and shameful to take the attention off me. The reality is that this gift of life came with choice, and until we are fully spiritually evolved, we are imperfect.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:58 am

Much thought went into you post, DK and once again, makes sense to me.

I'm with Shelagh.  I also shared my views on this and it's time to step aside.  Nothing that happened will change my life-style.  I have my own problems to deal with caring for a sick wife.  Nothing else matters.
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:10 pm

I agree, Abe.  Unfortunately there are those right wing religious zealots (I can't say fanatics since it includes many pastors - evangelicals) in the U.S. set on creating a hateful backlash against the gay people.  That is just wrong.  The Court has ruled.  It's time to mind our own business and get on with things - on all sides.

I'm sorry to hear that your wife is ill.  I missed something somewhere.  I thought the care she had received improved things.  I wish you both well in bringing her health back to where it should be and in the care that requires.
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 12:26 pm

It's a bit complicated.  Myasthenia Gravis is a rare disease with no known cure.  All they can do is try and control it.  She is at a critical stage and the doctor recommended that she go to a university clinic for treatment.  FYI.  University Clinics are non-profit while most hospitals are "for profit" and care is often limited.  A university clinic is also a teaching hospital.  Often when no one can diagnose a problem, they send the patient to a university clinic.  No stone is left unturned- so to speak, to find the problem and then treat it.  Our health insurer also suggested the same thing.  Cost is not a factor and we hope that they will find some way to make her life easier.  Today she collapsed.  It is a muscle issue and the muscles in her legs just gave out.  Previously she went to therapy with "kraft" exercises.  That was totally wrong.  Normally strengthening the muscles is a good thing, however with this disease it has a negative impact.  If you google Myasthenia Gravis you may learn more if interested.  It also is connected to the immune system.  If you can visualize how electricity works it can help with understanding how the nerve connect to muscles and either the spark is not there or there is a misfire.  It has affected her speech and she has difficulty talking. 
Within the next few days we will select a university clinic and then make preparations for admission.  She wants and needs to walk which is good, however not alone.  If there is a collapse, she needs to be where someone can help.
I'll let you know how things turn out and thank you for your concern.
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:26 pm

I'n sorry to hear about your wife's illness, Abe. I hope the treatment brings about an improvement and a better quality of life. Please pass on my regards and very best wishes to Gisela.

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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:48 pm

Life is so uncertain.  It demands much sometimes. Challenges seem to be present in everyone's life in all degrees and kinds.  I am glad your relationship is loving and you have many memories together to think about during these difficult times. I am also glad you are in Germany where your medical care is complete.  We have so many insurances to choose from I just picked the least expensive out of pocket and no co-pay for primary physicians.  I have little choice when it comes to who provides the care.  It must be on their approved list.  It also affects the type and level of care.  Hopefully the clinic will be able to provide some relief for your wife so her quality of life returns.  All my best...
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:59 pm

A great deal has been said about same sex marriage. The activists said that if they won, then that would be an end to the matter and life would go on as before. The early evidence is that the gap between straights and gays is widening rather than narrowing. Whatever two people do in private is of no concern to anyone else. It only becomes a problem when sections of the community claim rights because of their sexuality. As regards the law, all men and women are equal. There is no colour, sexual orientation, or religious belief that gives one man or woman greater rights than another. 

Humans are the only animals who take part in sexual activity as a pleasurable activity. Animals only have sex to procreate. If humans did the same, same sex relationships would be based on love, not sex. Human sexual activity has evolved to be enjoyable; if it were not enjoyable, humans wouldn't do it and the species would die out. Evolution has not yet reached a point where men and women can control their sexual urges. Prostitution, paedophilia, homosexuality and other forms of sexual activity are a direct consequence of humans' inability to exert contol over sexual urges. 

Over the centuries, religion has been used to offer moral guidance. Often, religion failed because of human frailty and the willingness of some to hide behind the Church to conceal their own sexual desires. Under the circumstances, it is hypocritical to condemn any kind of sexual activity between consenting adults. We have to learn to accept one another and not judge. The Supreme Court ruling did not, in fact, help to facilitate that acceptance. Ground that had been gained over the last two decades is crumbling. I will remain an independent observer.

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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:23 pm

This has been an interesting dialogue.  While we all have  varied opinions on the matter, we seem to agree that judging the behavior of others is a thorny path and adult private matters remaining just that are no one's business.  We also seem to concur that rights in a free society should be shared by all. 

Sometimes, in societies that live in groups, those rights need to be defined because they are not universal.  Some people don't understand that providing rights to all groups of people do not take them away from those who already have them. They may continue life as usual.

I heard one angry evangelical pastor on the radio say yesterday that this country was not founded on the separation of church and state but rather for the purpose of instilling Christian values and the teaching of Jesus Christ for all the citizens. The Deists would be quite surprised at that interpretation of their work.  What constitution did he read?  What school did he attend?  No wonder he's confused about his role.  He believes his responsibility is to make sure the government follows the teaching of Jesus Christ - as he interprets it.  Hmmmm...get him and an atheist in the room and there would be quite a row about the constitution and the role of government. They'd need quite the mediator.
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:58 pm

The Deists and Christians were inextricably linked by the actions of the first President of the United States:

"After being sworn in there at Federal Hall, he placed his hand on an open Bible and he pledged an oath before God and the nation to uphold the Constitution," Pastor Dan Cummins, with Bridlewood Church in Texas, said.
"George Washington, immediately after he took the oath of office under the Constitution, leaned down, picked up his Bible, and kissed the Bible. From there he invited his vice president, his cabinet, to follow him," Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., said.
"They walked down the street to St. Paul's Chapel where they had divine services. And there in that service America was dedicated to God," Cummins said.

The bible is still used to swear in witnesses in courts of law. That's the Christian bible, not the Deist bible. In or out of the Constitution, the bible is still an important part of American legal history.

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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:12 pm

From my perspective, the Bible is only as sacred as the people who believe that its contents hold them accountable to God.  I believe having someone swear on the Bible today is symbolic, but any vows a person has in a diverse country may vary by their religious beliefs. Swearing on the Bible may also recognize the power of God the Creator but does not necessarily include Jesus Christ.  Here is a sample of the debate among religious historians:

In recent decades, the role of deism in the American founding has become highly charged. Evangelical and/or “traditional” Protestants have claimed that Christianity was central to the early history of the United States and that the nation was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. They point to the use of prayer in Congress, national days of prayer and thanksgiving and the invocation of God as the source of our “unalienable rights” in the Declaration of Independence. Secularists respond that large fractions of the principal founding fathers were not Christians at all but deists and the American founding was established on secular foundations. Their principal evidence is the strict separation of church and state they find embedded in the first amendment. They further cite the utter absence of biblical references in our principal founding documents and note that the God of the Declaration of Independence is not described in a scriptural idiom as “God the Father” but instead in deistic terms as a “Creator” and “supreme judge of the world.” Although both sides have some evidence, neither is persuasive. Ultimately, the role of deism in the American founding is just too complex to force into such simplistic formulas.
http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/deism.htm

To cite this essay:
Staloff, Darren. “Deism and the Founding of the United States.” Divining America, TeacherServe©. National Humanities Center. DATE YOU ACCESSED ESSAY. June 30, 2015
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 5:45 pm

There was no deist Bible although one of them wrote his own version of the Bible. From what I have read, deists were more compromising than today's politicians and kept their deist leanings more private in order to get the business done.  The deists believed in their definition of God which was the common denominator with the Christians. All deists did not throw out the Bible entirely.  Just like today's Christians, they picked and chose what they considered not appropriate to guide enlightened behavior.
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:51 pm

Waiting for Domenic to weigh in on this conversation. 
My observations over the years with the use of the Bible to swear an oath was implied as swearing to tell the truth, as in a court of law.  "I swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God"

How many have sworn vows in marriage that end in divorce?  It seems that swearing is based on the moment and not for the long-term.  Is there some reference to a document that explains the meaning to swearing an oath?
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 9:52 pm

Thank you all for your comments of caring and support.  It is appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: I Have Never Read Such Hatred ! This Letter Is Horrible...   Tue Jun 30, 2015 10:17 pm

6/30

                         Abe...

                                   Your wife is in my prayers and on Sunday when I go to St. Francis
Cathedral I'll light a candle for her, no I'm not one of those bible thumping Christians, I
just go by what's in my heart and believe what Jesus said...

                                                               Cheers...Joe
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