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 Liberalism in the United States

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:25 am

Victor, you made your post at the same time I was writing mine.  I just read your post and appreciate the insights you shared.  Thanks.
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:28 am

Likewise, Abe. I was editing my post as you wrote yours. Agreed!
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 11:41 am

I guess that's why I abhor labels though I use them myself.  We are in the last analysis, people.  Take away the fears and lines in the sand and most of us have generous spirits. I always remember my landlord who owned the duplex in which I rented the other unit.  She made lots of promises she did not keep as my landlord and we didn't speak on the same porch at the same time.  Early one morning I awoke so ill I was frightened and being new to the community, only had her number.  She rushed over with all she had to nurse me through til morning and I was well enough not to see the doctor.  From then on, we not only spoke, we occasionally shared laughter and hugged.  I mowed the grass for us both and she finished all the projects in my unit she had promised. At the human level, everything else was small stuff. Once we found each other's human side, the things about which we had a dispute disintegrated and were resolved without malice.
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Victor D. Lopez
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 12:53 pm

DK,

Hear hear! [I am also guilty of using labels even when they don't perfectly fit.]

If we break through the labels that polarize us, we find our common humanity unites us. We can argue fervently for our point of view without attacking the integrity, intelligence or value of those who disagree with us. In doing so, we can learn valuable lessons about ourselves, about others and (when dealing with all but extremists), find common ground somewhere in the middle.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:34 pm

This breaking down of barriers needs to begin at the very personal level. So long as we cannot communicate in our families, our communities, and our workplaces, the ripple effects spread ever further.

I often note that an argument that begins with rational statements on both sides may end with name calling when neither side budges and the facts run out.  It seems that we revert to our worst instincts when our ego is threatened and we fear "loss" in some form.

I have always marveled at truces in war times.  Truce? Stop the war altogether then.  Sit down and bargain for a resolution that doesn't destroy families and livelihoods.

Recently we had a squabble between two towns claiming the same high end piece of a gated community that represented a considerable sum in taxes to the winning city.  Finally, each side sat down and was willing to give something on both sides, a legislator took a bill to the governor to sign and the boundaries are now a matter of law.  A lot of ill will came before the resolution - all about 76 very expensive homes. 

Now the dust has settled, hard feelings are getting softer.  Sometimes negotiators need to negotiate on what each party is willing to lose, not what each is attempting to gain.  Those 76 houses can be extrapolated to to nation-states and their border and governing issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 1:50 pm

The big difference between now and the 70s, Victor, is money. The young have money to spend that previous generations never did. When we talk about poor people today, the level of poverty is relative to today's higher standard of living. America's poor are not living at the same level of existence as those in the the third world. When you ask if Woodstock could be repeated today with the same compassion shown towards the festival goers as was shown fifty years ago, the answer is probably no. Today's festival goers turn up with tents, sleeping bags, wellington boots, plenty food and drink, and warm blankets. It's all part of the new generations self-reliance and independence. The problems will come when they are older and find that the society they have created doesn't care as much as the one they were born into.

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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:24 pm

6/13

                             It's called a throw away society......

                                         Cheers..Joe
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:07 pm


_________________

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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 3:32 pm

6/13

                       I believe the extreme left, or Liberals as they are known or in my 
                       younger day communists, days are numbered in the USA, People
                       are getting fed up with any one group who has an agenda, Hillary
                       from what I have read is so dis-liked the public isn't stupid they 
                       know she's a hard left liberal and as for the right wing Republicans
                       they to have to go..We have to have someone who has "NO" political
                       connections to Washington or any lobbyists, I have listened to this
                       man, he's not politically connected, he's a great brain surgeon his 
                       name Dr. Ben Carson...Check him out .................

                                                           Cheers...Joe....
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sat Jun 13, 2015 8:02 pm

Shelagh wrote:
AMEN!!
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:03 pm

Until the elections are not bought by special interests there is little to believe or understand.  The positions of the politicians are dependent on the funding they need to be elected, to spread the words their electorate needs to make an emotional, often irrational decision based on the propaganda from everywhere and without factual information.

Hillary Clinton is the best qualified.  What horrible things can she do with a Republican Congress?  and a right leaning court system?  She at least will provide some balance and forced dialogue.

No back burner has a chance without the special interest connections. 

Anyone who thinks Jeb Bush is not his brother doesn't live in Florida. I live in Florida.  I never want to see another Bush in the White House.  At least Jeb can put a sentence together.  His foreign policy knowledge is zero.

Then there's pretty Marco Rubio who has a spending problem - great example for the conservatives and he's a protege of Jeb Bush.  Marco Rubio is clearly a policy maker based on his religious beliefs.

There's Chris Christi who looks and acts like a bull dog with revenge - great for the leader of the West.

I think it's going to be Hillary vs. Jeb Bush because Bush has the money and Hillary has no real opposition.  

People will vote by their party allegiance.  Only those who are a little loose in their political affiliation may make a rational evaluation of who they wish to have as president.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sun Jun 14, 2015 6:17 pm

6/14

                           NO JEB BUSH !!!!  

                            Cheers.............Joe.......... Mad
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:07 pm

I was more interested in your answer. I found no answer to my question anywhere in that post.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:09 pm

6/14

                    Al..

                          What's the question ?

                                         Joe
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sun Jun 14, 2015 8:11 pm

Joe, the question was, who is harmed by same-sex marriages?
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:28 pm

6/14

                            AL..

                                   My answer no one is harmed..

                                             Cheers..Joe.................... Very Happy
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Sun Jun 14, 2015 9:48 pm

I object to the term "marriage" between same sex.  Same sex union for the purpose of possession requires a different term.
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harry
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:27 am

as old chauvinist  I'm agaist all those ' Sodoma  and Comode hooligans
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:01 am

Harry, I think that many share your views on this. 
It is not up to me to approve how one chooses to live.  My objection is when we as a society are expected to amend the tradition of marriage for the benefit of a few.  Whatever arrangement they develop for a legal method to divide the proceeds when their "togetherness" dissolves requires a new descriptive term for this new arrangement.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:29 am

6/15
                      Abe..

                               It should be called a " Civil Ceremony For Partners," and within that ceremony is a
               document saying you both have rights to each others health ( if one is ill,) plus the
               handling of one's affairs by the other partner so no one can object to what they need
               trust me that has happened to many couples.I do agree it shouldn't be called a marriage
               I think too many people in these groups get carried away....Just my opinion..

                                                                        Cheers..........Joe...... Cool
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:49 am

Good suggestion, Joe.  We'll call it CCFP.
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:19 am

6/15

                             Very good , " C.C.F.P."  

                              Cheers............................Joe..........
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:24 am

I don't think the Mormon practice of marrying young girls to old men is a "marriage" either.  In my opinion, marriage should be left to whaterver vows people make in their relationship with their spiritual beliefs. 

You get "married" by a willing minister or priest.  It's socially legal by an entirely other document, the license, a secular piece of paper that should spell out the benefits derived.

I think this whole discussion is a waste of time.  The Catholic church said my "marriage" could be annulled so I could become Catholic.  What kind of legality is that?  I doubt the laws of the state honored that Catholic annulment.  The English changed the laws of divorce and separated from the pope to meet the marital requirements of their King.  Marriage has always been a mixture of stuff depending on the culture.  If a person feels they want a "marriage" in the eyes of God by a priest or minister who is willing, then more power to them regardless of who they are.  Same with the legal document from the state that sets out the legal parameters of the marriage. 

Couples repeat their vows later in life and consider that similar to the first recitation of the vows. 

Who is a "man" and a "woman?"  I know many heterosexual appearing couples who likely have unusual practices in their bedrooms.  They weren't denied the right to marry and in my moralistic phase, I would have been against their marriage.
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:32 am

Abe F. March wrote:
My objection is when we as a society are expected to amend the tradition of marriage for the benefit of a few.
That few is about 12 million people in the US depending on which study you read. And those are the ones who are out of the closet.

We're not expected to amend anything except our institutionalized suppression of the rights of a demographic based on our disapproval of their social and personal practices and how they live.

No one can amend tradition. It is what it was. We can, however, correct a system that discriminates against those who are unlike us and thus establish tomorrow's better tradition.

We can contrive euphemisms such as "civil union" to assuage our disapproval, but the people affected will still call it "marriage." Should we make it illegal to call it a marriage? "You two there. You say you're married? Off to jail with you!"

Freedom of expression is not limited to expressions with which we agree.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
-- Benjamin Franklin
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Al Stevens
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PostSubject: Re: Liberalism in the United States   Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:37 am

There's nothing new about same sex marriage. I got married 55 years ago. The sex has been the same ever since.
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