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 ISIS - ISIL

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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: ISIS - ISIL   Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:54 am

We are hearing much in the news about the fight against ISIS.  Some will say ISIL.  I did a search and though you may find it informative.


Islamic State of Iraq and Syria, ISIS
Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL)
“The Levant today consists of Cyprus, Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and part of southern Turkey.
The name is abbreviated as ISIL or alternately ISIS. The final "S" in the acronym ISIS stems from the Arabic word Shām (or Shaam), which in the context of global jihad—as in Jund al-Sham, for example—refers to the Levant or Greater Syria.[93][94] ISIS was also known as al-Dawlah ("the State"), or al-Dawlat al-Islāmīyah ("the Islamic State"). These are short-forms of the name "Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham" in Arabic
 
ISIL is a Sunni extremist group that follows al-Qaeda's hard-line ideology and adheres to global jihadist principles.[105][106] Like al-Qaeda and many other modern-day jihadist groups, ISIL emerged from the ideology of the Muslim Brotherhood, the world’s first Islamist group dating back to the late 1920s in Egypt.[107] ISIL follows an extreme anti-Western interpretation of Islam, promotes religious violence and regards those who do not agree with its interpretations as infidels or apostates. Concurrently, ISIL—now IS—aims to establish a Salafist-orientated Islamist state in Iraq, Syria and other parts of the Levant
The intent of ISIL is an Islamic government that will control all Islamic States.” 
Source:  Wikepedia
 
While we are fighting the Islamic religious extremists, (and we should) we must not ignore the budding of a Christian religious extremist group in our own country.  The intent of any extremist religious group is to force their beliefs on others.  To to this, they want to control a government that will mandate how one lives. In our country, perhaps we could label it: CSA (Christian State of America.  )Don't know if T-Party fits, but it may.)
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alice
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:57 pm

Extreme anything is  to be avoided in my humble opinion.  

Chopping off the heads of anyone for any reason is abhorrent.

WHAT TO DO?  
Great Question.

The answer seems to be to blame President Obama.  

I call FOUL.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:27 pm

Agree with Alice, however, I see very little to connect the American religious right to ISIL.  I haven't seen them beheading their captive opponents recently.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:32 pm

Something else I have noted. When I was in college, we were extremely patriotic though we were adamantly against the Viet Nam conflict. We protested against policies not against the United States and not against the government. However, a few fanatics did take their protests to the extreme and harm others.

Additionally, political parties were as diverse within their party as they were different from the opposing party.  Thus, the country wasn't split into you and us but rather some of you and some of us disagree with some of you and some of us.  Thus coalitions were formed that got things done.  A lot of youth were engaged in political campaigns to support specific people as much as a specific party.

In my freshman class, those that dropped out loaded up on trucks to go help with the earthquake in Alaska or joined up with the Peace Corps.  It really wasn't about religion or political party, it was just an attempt to do the right thing.

The extreme positions that have been created in the U.S. seem to flow through us all today.  The judgment that goes with extreme positions also seems to be present in most of us though many deny it includes them.

I remember sitting in the Mall in Washington, D. C. as a political intern for the Republican Party working for the National Association of Manufacturers.  We were all out there with our lunch bags enjoying a tolerable non-rainy summer day with the military bands playing patriotic songs.  The patriotism I felt that summer has never been matched.  

I am still that person.  All that I know and accumulate in my lifetime is part of who I am today.  I believe in government that represents the people and works toward the common good.  I believe that government and religion are two entirely separate issues because we are a county of many religions and none has the right to control the behavior of our citizens.  All have a voice, but one voice should not dominate.

I still believe our ideals were pointed in a positive direction - for our country - though we began with a bloody and power-hungry history of which I am ashamed.  We have the capacity though to rise above that past by culling out those things which are fanatical, singular points of view that cater to a few and harm many.  We have the opportunity to include representation of all our citizens in all our government entities so their voices are heard and solutions to societal problems can be made with open hearts and minds. 

Unfortunately, we have become a nation where the few are heard the loudest and have the most power.  We have become a nation of division instead of innovative solution finders.  It's the them and us syndrome in personal relations and professional ones too. 

I find this the result of growing pains for a country still relatively young on the world stage;however and I note that a few members of the Senate and Congress actually said that the current political crisis requires agreement for action.  Miracles do happen.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:36 pm

I kind of envy you, DK.  My life was heading in a very different direction, and I was barely 20 years old at the time.

I was sitting with my soon-to-be bridesmaids at a luncheon at our local Yacht Club when the maitre'd walked over and apologetically asked if he could turn on the TV as the news had just broken that President Kennedy had been shot.

I did not completely understand it at the time, but the world that I thought I was about to enter had just ended.  My soon-to-be husband was five years older than I was, and completely settled into that world.  That 5-year age difference soon proved to be more like a generation.

Before I knew it, I had settled in to bridge clubs, volunteer service, and teaching Sunday School classes.  Within a few short years, I was a stay-at-home mom (like most of the mothers in that community at that time.)  I was a closet hippie for several years before I found the courage to say what I really thought about the world situation and our proper place in it, and begin to find my own purpose and path.

Today's world is very different from that world, regardless of the directions we were taking at the time.  It is hard for me to find many correlations.

However, this crisis could turn out to have some positive effects, if the majority of us decide that stopping ISIL is a necessary priority over the ridiculous extremes of the past few years.

Personally, I think the time of the influence of the religious right has passed.  It doesn't worry me as much as the remaining, though weakening, power of the moneyed corporations.

This is a new era and old answers won't work.  We can only hope, and in hoping, perhaps help to co-create a new era of enlightened peace, where the extremes on all sides can let go of the old hatreds and find ways to work together for the survival of all of us.

Me being me.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:02 pm

Interesting comments.  I think that awareness is essential.  We haven't seen physical violence in our country, however that can happen when tempers flair.  Even issues on this forum have turned ugly.  Imagine how disagreements would translate if people were face-to-face.
I see a benefit for the US with the ISIS/ISIL happening abroad.  It may help us identify early signs so we can work on prevention.  Religion has been and still is a cause of conflict.  Good medicine is prevention.  We are now in the prevention phase.  With ISIS/ISIL we are dealing with the treatment - the cure.  I wish there was a clear method for a cure.  Is killing the only answer?  As with medicine, there are side-effects.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:01 am

Actually, people on forums seem to feel free to express their worst selves that civility would prevent them from exposing in a real life situation. Facebook becomes downright frightening at election time.

Shunning is an integral part of some religions and the psychological consequences are often dire.

Imposing religious views by putting them in legislation in this country is a death sentence to desperate women who need medical care but are prevented by the fanatics who wish to control medical practices for the poor by their fanaticism while they still clap their hands for capital punishment and guns.  Hypocrisy is common in fanatical religious practices and all the more reason to keep religion out of legislation.

From what I hear the Republican party is doing quite well.  That being the case, religious practice is more likely to be incorporated in legislation.  They already control the vote through gerrymandering, eliminating early voting, imposing inconvenient voter identification rules, moneyed negative adds (the airwaves are swamped with them) and preaching from the pulpits. Apparently, the U.S. does not see the danger of religious rule evident in the current international crisis and in those of the past.

While I believe all citizens need to be represented in a representative democracy and that religious dogma has no place in legislation other than to guarantee the right to worship by one's choice, it does not mean that spiritual matters are not part of my belief system. 

Unfortunately, the religious right has done an excellent job of tying their fanaticism to patriotism and military service and take ownership on their beliefs as the only acceptable ones, all who do not wish to incorporate their religious practices in legislation are considered "liberal" and without beliefs in God or country.  Sound familiar?  Just change the wording a bit.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:53 am

Good post, DK.  I don't know why it is, but it seems we agree more often than not.

I believe that in the near future the weapon(s) that the terrorists will use will be biological weapons.  It has already been mentioned on the news as a possible threat.  When one considers the Ebola virus that is still a hazard, consider other virus forms that can be introduced into our food system.  That is a weapon of mass people destruction.

I'm currently reading my book, "They Plotted Revenge Against America"  The weapon used was a virus. It is a good read.  For anyone interested, see: http://tinyurl.com/kvf6yb6
It is a timely read.  Check the reviews for customer reaction.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:00 am

DK wrote:
Actually, people on forums seem to feel free to express their worst selves that civility would prevent them from exposing in a real life situation. Facebook becomes downright frightening at election time.

That was precisely my thought as well.

I attended a church here is SA for several years after arriving.  I made many friends, and our degree of conservatism or liberalism did not seem to matter, until election time.  Then the claws came out.

The difference became more pronounced, too, the longer that politics became involved in the split within the denomination between the northern and southern diocese, with factions forming that echoed the red/blue/purple status around the country.

There is still something of a power play going on, with an alliance, an unholy one, I think, between the corporate structure and the leaders of the more conservative denominations and areas.  The connection between those groups and the continued subjugation and demeaning of women cannot be denied.  As DK pointed out, much of the legislation is designed to control women through old reality beliefs.  The same is true for keeping the poor poor and preventing minorities from voting.

But I don't see it as being about religion so much as it is about the power structure using religion as one part of a scheme to maintain economic power for themselves and their very small group.

I also think our history and independent thinking give us an edge that places like Africa and the Middle East do not have, and that is still on the weak side in most of Eastern Europe.

I am impressed with the work John Kerry is doing.  I cannot help but believe that Europe and even some of the more progressive Arab countries will join with the US in finding ways to stop them.  Their agenda is too dark and extreme for the rest of the world, which is becoming more aware all the time.  The internet is making it possible for people all across the world to communicate, and while there are obvious problems with that influence right now, having a voice will become too important to let go of.  It may take a while, but the new reality is basically here.  The old one is in its death throes, knows it, and is fighting all the way out.

The new reality ways of cooperation and collaboration will win out over competitive infighting, though, and sooner than one might think.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:28 am

My sister-in-law and I had a conversation some years ago about the institutions of orgnized religion.  She said that belonging to a congregation was like holding a membership in and exclusive club, and that membership brought (bought) them privileges that were denied to non-members.  I added that it had becme a group where the goal was to keep people sick as opposed to making them well, because people who were well felt no need to stay and pay.

It still all comes down to economics, doesn't it.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:48 am

Even in my church for which I have great fondness, I see those members who make large contributions as having favor with the board.  It's subtle, but real.  And our church is in a very economical building with minimum costs (most labor done by members of the congregation). Imagine how wealthy  members make a difference in those congregations with major expenses for several ministers and lavish church buildings. Their contributions influence Sunday's sermon and the discussion topics in the classes.

We still have religious sects in this country holding to pre-industrial age lifestyles and beliefs.  Those religious groups, however, tend to keep to themselves and don't encourage indoctrinating anyone else. In their communities, however, they do have influence on local government and laws. Fortunately, most of them seek peaceful lives.

Many of the religions in this country believe that only their converts and members will have everlasting life and enter heaven.  They just don't believe they need to rid the world of those who do not believe as they do.  My neighbor sees me leave for church each Sunday and a visitor to her church service at her house tried to save me in my driveway anyway.

When I see religious fervor in this country leading to the murder of doctors and the fear held by those who provide health care to needy pregnant women, I see the piece of human nature that is ripe for fanatical beliefs.  It's scarey.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:24 am

It's very scarey, especially to those fundamentalists who cannot help but see that their worldview is crumbling.  In one of the Outlander episodes, the heroine, Claire, who was a nurse before getting caught in that time-warp, is considered a magical healer in 18th century Scotland.  It's a dangerous position. She talks to her new friend, Jamie, about how scarey the local priest is, saying that he would rather have seen her patient die than having her heal him.  Jamie responds:   "A man's beliefs are how he makes sense out of life.  Take that away and what does he have left?  Is it so different where you come from?"  She replies, "Well, when you put it that way."

Love that bit - it was in the book, as well, and part of Ms. Gabaldon's storytelling skill.  It's a reality that crosses time lines.  We could say the same about those fundamentalists today.  However, we don't have to worry about being burned to the stake as witches, just about being ridiculed for supporting a more enlightened perspective.  There is a "photo" appearing on FB right now, presenting quotations from Republican lawmakers about such things as "legitimate rape,"which all fall into that same line.  

I still think their influence over people at large is diminishing.  The bigger problem, to my eyes, is the international financial elite, which uses their fear.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:57 pm

If those buying ISIS oil and selling them weapons stopped - eventually so would ISIS.  But no, it's better to bomb the hell out of them than put a stop to the money, the oil and the weapons.  After all, those three are making a heady profit for someone.

Same issue with the Ukraine.  Might makes right.  He who has the resources rules.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:34 pm

9/15/2014

                        God save the people...........

                                   Joe
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:23 am

Coalition to fight ISIS/ISIL
 
Obama made an important move to organize a coalition of Arab countries to fight Evil.
Getting them to cooperate/participate most certainly required much persuasion.  Just prior to the coalition agreement, Israel was bombing the hell out of Gaza.  The UN Secretary General and his deputy in a Press Conference said, “Enough is enough.”  Suddenly the bombing stopped.  I’m guessing that Obama must have told Netanyahu to stop.  He may even have threatened to cut off their financial support.  Whatever he did, it has worked – so far.  Should the bombing of Gaza resume, I suspect that the Arab coalition may be shattered.  Evil is evil whether from friend or foe.
Money is power and cutting off the supply source is effective.  Sanctions on Russia are working.  The Coalition is working to cut off the money supply to ISIS/ISIL by bombing their oil supply that they have been using to generate the money they need to pay their soldiers and purchase supplies.
Money as a weapon is preferable to killing people. 
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:43 am

If those buying ISIS oil and selling them weapons stopped - eventually so would ISIS.  But no, it's better to bomb the hell out of them than put a stop to the money, the oil and the weapons.  After all, those three are making a heady profit for someone.

Same issue with the Ukraine.  Might makes right.  He who has the resources rules.


I agree with you Abe that money is the controller.  It's even the well-paid ISIS fighters that encourage joining up...it's the best paying job to take care of families in the Middle East.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:48 am

9/25
               Soon it'll all be over.........No more horrors...
                 
               Religion used in the wrong way is the downfall
                 
               of civilization......................................

                                 Cheers.......Joe
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:50 am

Good insight, DK.  You're right Joe.  Religion continues to be a major factor in conflict.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:05 am

Abe F. March wrote:
Coalition to fight ISIS/ISIL
 
Obama made an important move to organize a coalition of Arab countries to fight Evil.
Getting them to cooperate/participate most certainly required much persuasion.  Just prior to the coalition agreement, Israel was bombing the hell out of Gaza.  The UN Secretary General and his deputy in a Press Conference said, “Enough is enough.”  Suddenly the bombing stopped.  I’m guessing that Obama must have told Netanyahu to stop.  He may even have threatened to cut off their financial support.  Whatever he did, it has worked – so far.  Should the bombing of Gaza resume, I suspect that the Arab coalition may be shattered.  Evil is evil whether from friend or foe.
Money is power and cutting off the supply source is effective.  Sanctions on Russia are working.  The Coalition is working to cut off the money supply to ISIS/ISIL by bombing their oil supply that they have been using to generate the money they need to pay their soldiers and purchase supplies.
Money as a weapon is preferable to killing people. 
The "Enough is enough" speech was made in early July.  At the time, months before the coalition, there were strikes going on on both sides.

Obama made it clear near the end of his speech yesterday that the problem was not an Arab/Israeli problem, but one of sectarianism within the Muslim factions.  He also made it clear that the only solution to the conflict between Palestine and Israel was the establishment of two seperate nations, and that both sides had to stop the violence.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:56 am

9/25

                 This just came in over the wire services the Prime Minister of Iraq has
            stated to the press their intellegience people have un-covered a plot by
            ISIS to bomb the NYC and Paris Subways , nothing has been done to stop
            the plot so far he stated, but the US and France have been warned that the
            threat is iminent and very real....God help the people of NYC and Paris...

                                                    Joe
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:19 am

It is reported that 1/3 of the world's population are Muslim.  Attempting to wipe out Muslims is not going to happen unless the intent is to self-destruct.  It has also been said that Muslims intend to take over the world via reproduction.  While the West concentrates on birth control, the opposite is happening in the Muslim world. 
In my opinion, it is prudent to concentrate on how to deal with Muslims in a peaceful manner rather than concentrate on destruction.  We have a window of opportunity to deal with this issue.  That doesn’t mean we stop our efforts to prevent the spread of terrorism and bring people to justice, but to seek a formula of accommodation.  So long as we pit Christians against Muslims, we all lose. 
Democracy may be the formula where human rights are at the forefront.  Regardless of religion, people the world over want the basic things in life.  They want food, shelter and clothing.  They also want to be happy.  Being happy, as currently discussed on another thread, is not the same for everyone.  Trying to force our vision of happiness or our way of life on another culture won’t work.  Since we will not eliminate religion from any culture, it is prudent to find common ground.  Muslims believe in one God that they call “Allah”.  Christians believe in one God.  The one God of Judaism is referenced by different names, i.e., YHWH, also Jehovah or Yahweh.  There is much similarity in the Bible, the Koran and the Torah that offers a basis for discussion.  There are extremists in all three religions and the concentration is usually on the actions of the extremists. 
Education is the catalyst.  The three major religions: Islam, Judaism and Christianity have much in common.  Comparative religious studies can benefit everyone.  One does not need to be a religious person to study the history of religion; however sectarian philosophy clouds the issue. 
 
We resist the objective of ISIS to push their beliefs on others.  If they want their own sectarian government to control how people live, it is understandable how our way of life is resisted when it is not understood.  Lack of education is the culprit.  Being forced to accept a philosophy or form of government is not “Free Will”.    
 
Israel still has a window of opportunity to make peace by adhering to the rule of law.  If she fails to do this, I fear that she will cease to exist in the future.  Depending on the backing of the US for protection won’t work.  Predictions of Armageddon may be the result.
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:10 am

Here's an interestingly ironic tidbit about an ISIS recruiting strategy:
Darren Aronofsky's 'Noah' Is Being Used in ISIS Newsletters "To Make a Point, Which Is Hilarious"
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/darren-aronofskys-noah-is-being-737356

Darren Aronofsky's Noah was never released in Qatar, Bahrain and the United Arab Emirates, as well as Malaysia and Indonesia, because it violates Islamic law by depicting a prophet.


But shots from the biblical epic are now in front of a new audience.

"I don’t think anyone’s gonna use [Noah] to recruit people to become true believers — that’s definitely not the message of the film. … But I just found out ISIS in their newsletter is using imagery from my movie to make a point — which is hilarious because we were banned from so many Muslim countries!" said the director on Tuesday night while being honored as New York City's New Museum’s 2014 Stuart Regen Visionary. "If they actually knew the source of the material!"

He then expanded on the literalism arguments that surrounded the film's release. "There is more power in accepting these old books as mythology, … instead of fighting over, did it really happen?" he told novelist Lynne Tillman in a comprehensive conversation. "We were trying to recapture these stories away from true believers and say they are our stories, just how you look at Ulysses and The Odyssey; they belong to the world. I tried as hard as possible to stay away from literalism. … Whether it’s ISIS or the heartland here, … let's leave that behind and look at the lessons here, but we don’t have to live exactly by the word," he added, evoking applause from the audience.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:45 am

I find it incredible that ISIS is holding the entire world at bay. 
With the combined power of the coalition, they could surround ISIS and remove them from the scene.  Thinking that the problem can be solved by Air Strikes is not going to work.  It may slow them down and reduce their numbers, but it won’t stop them. 
The longer it takes to stop them, the stronger the will of the ISIS group will become and the more recruits they will have.  They already feel empowered given that they are standing up against world powers.  Enemies of the west will funnel money and weapons to this deranged group of religious fanatics.  It is better to take the tough steps now rather than later to get rid of this evil menace. 




As for “Boots on the ground”.   Unless they want to send in troops barefooted, why don’t they just say, “Troops on the Ground”?
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:54 pm

10/7

             Their right now on the border of Turkey, hello world do you think their
             going to stop their, hello no ! They need 1/2 million troops on the ground
             to do the proper job maybe we should bring back the draft ? I think we'll
             need at least 1 miilion men to wipe them out....

                                                        Joe
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: ISIS - ISIL   Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:43 am

Bombing is not a solution to the existing problem with ISIS/ISIL.  It is a reaction born out of frustration not knowing what to do; yet feeling that one must do something.  The result of this action makes the situation worse increasing hate toward the West, especially America. It is just another example of Action and Reaction.  The GOP accuses the President of lacking Leadership, implying that he should get involved militarily.  In the President’s speech on Sunday he said that we would defeat ISIS/ISIL with a coalition of partners under American Leadership.  Thinking that only with American leadership can the problem be solved is part of the problem.  When GWB wanted to invade Iraq, he tried to get the UN (world body) on board.  Not all countries agreed with him and some were coerced to go along. 
Dealing with the source of the problem is not politically popular.  People in general want a quick fix and the knee-jerk reaction is to launch a bombing campaign.  Bombing is not precise and innocents get killed calling it collateral damage.  It is the collateral damage that sparks the reaction of hate.  
Religion, as usual, is at the root of the problem.  It is not just Christianity –vs. - Islam, but a deeper cause that is conveniently ignored.   We want to be seen as “even-handed” in our dealings, however our actions prove otherwise.  We condone and even support the occupation of land by our friend, yet are outraged when Russia occupies the Ukraine.  We place sanctions against Russia, but no sanctions against the flagrant violations committed by Israel in Palestine.  Genocide, Apartheid, theft of land is financed by America to the detriment of the American citizens.  Billions of aid has reached Trillions.  The supporters of this on-going conflict jeopardize the care of our Veterans, Seniors and underprivileged.  Money for making war and supporting a rogue regime is made available while our citizens suffer the consequence.
 
President Carter recognized the problem and took action bringing the sides together.  He got agreements between the parties, however those agreements where not honored by the Israelis.  We had and have the power to enforce agreements and UN Resolutions, but fail to do so.  So long as we continue to fund and support illegal acts by our so-called friend, the problems multiply.  We have the power to solve the problem, but lack the resolve.  Any action by Obama would be rejected.  He has been labeled as a Muslim and that label, although false, is believed by many.  I applaud his efforts to find peaceful solutions instead of launching another war.  His efforts resulted in an agreement with Iran against much opposition.  I believe his advisors are pushing him into taking military action in Syria with ground troops where we will be mired in another no-win situation at the cost of more lives.
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