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 Ferguson, Missouri

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dkchristi
Abe F. March
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyMon Aug 18, 2014 11:33 pm

A small town, Ferguson, Missouri is the talk of media around the world.  Iraq, Syria and Gaza are no longer the hot topics.  When we witness civil unrest in other parts of the world develop into armed struggle, we form opinions.  We saw what happened in Syria when the government turned their weapons on the citizens to gain control.  Could that happen in America?  We witness a huge show of force by the police using military vehicles/equipment ready to go into action.  Considering that many Americans are armed, the danger to law enforcement is real and they appear ready to act in self-defense by force.  What about Constitutional Rights or is that an after thought? 
Is America on the brink of Revolution?  It takes only one spark to light a fire.  What happens when fires break out in numerous locations at once? 
For writers, current events can develop into interesting stories both fiction and non-fiction. 
 
What would happen if some foreign country, i.e., China, Russia or some other world power would voice an opinion and offer to send troops or help to quell disturbance?  Consider how any country feels when the US intervenes in the domestic affairs of another country. 
 
We are not immune.  What is the cause?  Is it unemployment?  Is it the gap between the rich and the poor?  What would it take for a Revolution in America?   I believe it can happen. 
What should be the reaction of law enforcement?  Do they have the right to quell disturbance by force? 
It is difficult to make the optimal decision when one is in the middle of a situation.  A policeman reacts when threatened as would a soldier.  No one knows how he/she will react until faced with a situation.  Shooting multiple bullets at a person when one would suffice doesn’t appear appropriate.  Recently in Germany, a policeman was being attacked by a man carrying a knife and a sword.  He shot him in the leg to bring him down.  Is that the result of training?
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyTue Aug 19, 2014 8:38 am

Abe you are voicing questions about which we don't like to think.  We like to think we are the standard bearers for peace in the world, and yet, like the song, let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.  We have many powder kegs where money can make a difference.

I believe the militarization of the police force is a big mistake.  That's what the national guard is for - a military need in a civilian situation.  Police are guardians of the community, the person to whom a young child in need turns for safety.  The infamous someone needs to put a stop to it.
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyTue Aug 19, 2014 9:19 am

“Is America on the brink of Revolution?  It takes only one spark to light a fire.  What happens when fires break out in numerous locations at once?”

Let me start my comments by saying, Abe I think a revolution is a lot closer than people would like to believe!

“We are not immune.  What is the cause?  Is it unemployment?  Is it the gap between the rich and the poor?  What would it take for a Revolution in America?   I believe it can happen.  
What should be the reaction of law enforcement?  Do they have the right to quell disturbance by force?”  


There are too many causes to count.  The poor just wanting to survive.  The lazy wanting things given to them.  Gangs looking for an excuse.  The urban areas of the United States where life has lost all meaning.  The racial inequities that have gone on for 200 hundred years.  So many reasons, but I don’t think it will be a true revolution, it will be a nationwide riot…big difference!

Unfortunately there are a lot of Fergusons around the country waiting to blow, and there not all small towns…LA, Chicago, New York!

From what I have been able to find out, Ferguson is a town of 21,000 people that until 1970 was 97% white.  It is currently 67% black.  It has a police force of 53 people 3 of which are black (what’s wrong with this picture).  The police force is woefully under trained.  

Although shocking, what is happening in Ferguson is merely a particularly severe example of a much broader and long-running phenomenon: the militarization of police weaponry and tactics in the US. In part thanks to federal programs that provide military equipment to local police (though not military training), and encourage its use as part of ordinary law enforcement, police are increasingly using SWAT-style tactics in routine policing. However, experts say, this phenomenon is extremely dangerous, and can make otherwise peaceful situations dangerous — as police appear to have done in Ferguson.  Officers have been patrolling the streets in combat fatigues and full body armor, carrying rifles that I would describe as "short-barreled 5.56 mm rifles based on the military M4 carbine.  They have also deployed MRAPs, tank-like armored trucks built by the military to withstand land mines and IEDs in Iraq, and have made heavy use of tear gas, including in residential areas.
That's happening thanks to the United States military. The Department of Defense Excess Property Program, usually known as the "1033 program," distributes surplus military equipment to state and local law enforcement agencies for use in counter-terrorism and counter-narcotic activities. Put another way, this means that the US military is giving its weapons to cities and states, with the express intention they be used on American citizens, in the course of local police work.

It allows police departments to get pretty much any equipment that they want from the defense department.  We've seen across the country police departments getting some pretty heavy weaponry that was built and designed for use in combat overseas, and using that equipment domestically.  Unfortunately, they don’t receive the training on the equipment or when it is really necessary to use it.

I rarely take sides when a policeman shoots someone, whether it was right or wrong.  If you are not in the position to make that split second decision I don’t think you can judge someone else's decision.  Maybe the civilian wasn’t armed, but did the officer think he was?  Shot six times?  I was trained to shoot until the threat it neutralized.  Shoot him before he shoots you, but that was also in the army.  In your scenario in Germany, the officer knew the threat was a knife and a sword, he had time to aim and shoot for the leg.  If he thought the man was reaching for a gun would he have done the same?

I know it’s over simplifying it but I feel that NO person should be allowed to put on the uniform of a police officer without having been through a police academy.  Every state police department has one and they are usually open to local police departments.  I have a dear friend who retired from the Sheriff’s department who’s whole training was a year of ride alongs with a ranking officer.  He is my closest friend and I know he would give his life for me, but he is also the most bigoted person I have ever known.  Only by the grace of God did he not end up doing what the officer in Ferguson did!


Last edited by Don Stephens on Tue Aug 19, 2014 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyTue Aug 19, 2014 10:20 am

A complex sitation.  The rise of social media through sources like Facebook and Twitter are helping to equalize a long-standing problem:  pockets of hate in smaller communities which have had carte blanche to practice their bigotry and prejudices without much outside attention.

This morning, as I was watching a news report, I found myself remembering a very old film: In the Heat of the Night, which starred Sidney Poitier and Rod Steiger.  The theme was quite similar - a white ruling class vs a helpless African American population.  But it was filmed and set in 1967.  Most of us had assumed that such things were behind us.  Suddenly, though, these things can no longer be kept hidden.  I see that as a positive sign.  Admittedly, there is a backlash going on because of fearful people who see their power source and their scapegoating of victims being threatened.  They did not get that things have changed.  They thought they could get away with this gross injustice.  But it didn't work, and their attempt has been brought to light - internationally.  Another of those exposures that are becoming more frequent as more individals are waking up to the reality of such situations.
When these dark happenings are brought to light - as more and more of them are, the less will be the power of the perpetrators.


The reactions and the publicity are positive signs that our worldview of reality is changing, in a positive way.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyTue Aug 19, 2014 1:12 pm

Thanks for the input.  All with valid points. 
I think it safe to say that we are not immune to terror.  Searching for the cause is time well spent.  The Cause and Effect thing is real.  We know the cause of the conflict in the M.E., but don't do what is needed to resolve it.  We think we know the cause of much strife in the US, but we may be way off the mark.  The media is having a hey day.  They just love controversy and ramp up the hysteria where they can. (Just my opinion).  Some reporters keep asking the same questions looking for the answers they want that will enhance their story.  We can't stop the media from reporting nor can we or should we censor what is reported.  However, responsible reporting is needed.  Who decides what is repsonsible?  Hysteria is often media induced. 
We don't want to think that America is no longer prejudiced, but we know it is.  That is not going to change in the foreseeable future.  Part of my post was intended to reflect how we view events in other parts of the world without realizing it can happen to us.  We should learn from what happens and be prepared to react in a manner to avoid similar results. 
The Police is there to maintain law and order.  The use of force is a problem.  I used Syria as an example, and when it was happening, my comments at that time indicated that the Assad regime was trying to maintain order.  It got out of hand and eventually led to using lethal gas.  Where do we draw the line?  That is the dilemma faced by law enforcement.  In the end, officers of the law are human and want to protect their lives.  No once can predict how one will react unless or until placed in a life-threatening situation.  Over reacting will occur.  I can't understand why anyone would think that shooting a person multiple times is needed.  If they are trained, one bullet should suffice.  If the objective is to disable the person, killing is not necessary.  JMO.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyTue Aug 19, 2014 2:24 pm

Abe wrote:

I can't understand why anyone would think that shooting a person multiple times is needed.  If they are trained, one bullet should suffice.  If the objective is to disable the person, killing is not necessary.  JMO.

That reminds me of the Western films I saw as a child.  A good lawman would shoot to maim.  As I got older and Westerns got more realistic, that shifted. The lawman who did not shoot to kill was endangering, not only his own life, but the safety of the community he had been elected to protect.

Audie Murphy was a war hero who later made his living playing Western lawmen.  One can see the shift in perspective occurring over the course of his career.  The original Lethal Weapon film used the two characters, the younger played by Mel Gibson and the older by Danny Glover, to [portray the two sides.  Glover's character preferred the romantic version; Gibson's the more realistic one.

 Jake Holder, in the Redstone books, was reminded by Daniel that there was a difference between making war and keeping peace.  Later, when Jake died trying to keep peace during the middle of a war, Daniel was forced into realizing that those lines were not always clear.

And in those above scenarios, the lawmen were generally the good guys.  The fictional stories they are part of, and other versions of such stories, probably constitute as much as any of us here have experienced personally.  As the situation in Ferguson develops, it looks more and more like the "good guy" approach to keeping peace is not the case in this instance.  Are crimes perpetrated by those who are being paid to keep peace increasing, or are we just more aware, and more appalled when they are made public?  It seems to me that a latent racial hatred among some Americans is being brought to the public eye. We elected an African-American president - twice.  The perspective is changing, but those who cannot change are coming more angrily to the surface.

Let's watch this example as it is played out, and see if its exposure of the situation cannot perhaps be a catalyst to push the inevitable changes forward.

Just me.
  
(Edited to correct typos.  I posted w/o checking for them because my tablet kept warning me it needed recharging.  I got as far as I could as fast as I could before sending so that I could switch to the PC.  Fortunately, the pain and stiffness in my hands is lessening so that I can sit at my desk and type on this keyboard w/o hurting as much as I have been these last few months.)
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyTue Aug 19, 2014 10:02 pm

8/19/2014

               I heard earlier tongiht another shooting this one in St. Louis, 23 yr old refused
               to obey the police waving a knife and kept screaming shoot me, I was always
               taught when a cop says stop, you better stop. When I have been stopped for
               a traffic ticket I always kept my hands on the wheel of the car, stating I'm 
               getting my license out of my wallet, yes I'm taking the registration out of the
               glove compartment, this way the officer knows I'm not going to pull a fast one.

                                                         Joe
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyTue Aug 19, 2014 10:47 pm

Joe, you make a good point.  Respect for the law was something taught by my parents when I was a child.  The same thing applied to our teachers.  We were taught to obey.  I don't remember when that changed and the police were called "pigs".  Teachers lost their authority when the parents stripped them of it.  Control in the classroom suffered and most likely the learning.
Wearing a uniform is no longer a sign of authority.  The actions of those wearing the uniform carries weight.  Being stopped by the police for a traffic violation is being challenged.  You either follow the directions of the officer or you instigate confrontation by challenging his authority.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 6:21 am

8/20/2014

                  I have never in my life heard of any white people rioting when a white
              person was shot by the police? I lived through the riots of the mid 1960's
              and even what's going on now, I always felt that outside agitators and I'm
              sorry to say this Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson are no help at all, trust me
              their not a Martin Luther King , I know these think they are and I've seen
              interviews with these two and they come off as racist, to me they just add
              fuel to the fire. Another thing don't you think if it was whites rioting and 
              looting they would have been shot down by the police because they wouldn't
              have thought twice about it...Just my observations over the last 50 years...And
              what Abe said is true their is no more respect for teachers, police or firemen, I
              blame the parents, respect is taught at home, I know that's how I was taught..

                                                             Joe
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Don Stephens
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 9:02 am

Abe F. March wrote:
I don't remember when that changed and the police were called "pigs".  Teachers lost their authority when the parents stripped them of it.  Control in the classroom suffered and most likely the learning.

Abe,
Let me see if I can refresh your memory.   Does the  mid-sixties to early seventies ring any bells.  There was a little shindig going on in Southeast Asia that polarized all of American.  Hippies were the rage.  Communes became popular.  Free love and the romanticizing of the use of dope became the theme in movies. Young people burned their draft cards and told the government to stuff it.   Groups preached, that parents should be friends with their children, not the boss.  If a group was unhappy with something the government was doing or saying, they blew up one of their buildings.  The draft was abolished.  Teachers and coaches were told that there shouldn’t be winners or loser in competition and that grading students was unfair and could injure their little minds.  It was the BEGINNING OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS and the ACLU pushed it beyond reason.
These are just a few of the things off the top of my head that I think caused the decline in the respect for ANY authority by people.

Again - JMHO.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 9:20 am

My memory is that most of the faces promoting this new wave of disrespect were white.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 9:42 am

8/20/2014

                   Wrong ! Respect comes from both sides, I've had friends white, African American,
                   Hispanic and we never acted that way towards each other, respect is taught in
                   the home by the parents....

                                                                 Joe
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 9:52 am

First of all, for Don: I want to reiterate something I have said many times here, that the treatment of returning Vietnam vets was deplorable. We need a strong military. Our soldiers, our warriors, are our source of protection from outside invaders, and we learned the hard way during WWII, that e have to read, and take into account, the actions by aggressors in other countries, and take action, sometimes, before our own country is directly attacked or in danger. We are part of a larger world, and we must accept that and respond accordingly. We might not agree with the choices made by those with the power to make them but that is not the soldier's concern.

It is also important, I think, to remember that, at that time, "Hawks" and "Doves" did not fall into the political lines that we might expect, looking back. It was one of those "changing times," and old lines were disintegrating as new ones formed.

I would also point out, since I mentioned these characters in an earlier post, that the two of my fictional characters I mentioned, deveoped their perspectives as soldiers and warriors. They drew their conclusions based on their own experiences in battle. The real warrior/soldier, Audie Murphy, drew similar conclusions. No sane person likes war, but realistic people understand that we have not reached a place where we can dispense with it, and in the meantime, we just have to pray, and stay aware, and hope that those who make the decisions are aware of the realities as well.

We could get into some long discussions re child-rearing practices, and express a lot of differing perspectives, but is that what is really at stake in Ferguson? Or is this an occurence that is defined by racial hatred? Daniel Redstone's's question, "Who is right? Who is wrong? And who gets to decide which is which?" keeps popping into my head here.

Does racial or ethnic hatred ever present itself in a logical way, with easy either/or answers?

Today, as I watch news, for the first time in a long time, the focus has shifted from Missouri back to the ME, and the decapitation of an American journalist by ISIS/ISIL, and with it, the difficulty impossibility of there being a right side and a wrong side in the situation. There are rights and wrongs going on on both sides, and there is no way to separate the heroes from the villains. It is all a matter of perpective.

And that, to me, is a big part of the definition of tragedy.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 10:04 am

In my books, it is Daniel who asks the question, "Who is right? Who is wrong, and who gets to decide which is which?" Just before his death, Jake tells his attackers, "Do not try to tell me what is right and what is wrong," and he died fighting for his perspectives.

Nothing is more difficult than separating out those concepts in an actual situation. There are no easy answers; no "right" side; no "wrong" side, whether we are talking about racial/ethnic hatred or parenting strategies.

Just me, again
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 10:32 am

Thanks Don.  Your memory is better than mine.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 10:36 am

Abe,
Not sure my memory is any better.  I've just been pissed about it for forty years!
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyWed Aug 20, 2014 11:13 am

Does racial or ethnic hatred ever present itself in a logical way, with easy either/or answers?

No, Ann.  It is an emotional, gut level, response.  Even those of us who try to cross the great divide with understanding get caught in jokes, stereotypical responses, and fear of the dark.

I often spend time with people of other cultures and races.  I always know I am white.  If I didn't, they would remind me.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyThu Aug 21, 2014 1:17 pm

I was thinking about the situation in Ferguson.  Regardless of the potential outcomes, I do not believe that the police officer will get a fair shake in Ferguson any more than the young man who was shot will be thoroughly investigated.  Ferguson is too emotional, too hot, too connected to both men in opposite ways to allow the real facts to come forward.  Weighing against justice is the fact that police forces are notorious for protecting their own fromm lying to planting or removing evidence.

While many things happened that seem to be evidence of excessive police force, the investigation has just begun.  There is already a rush to judgment - almost a threat - that the officer be indicted and accused and sentenced. He is entitled to a fair investigation and a fair assessment of the facts.  I do not believe that is possible in Ferguson.

In summary, the parents, loved ones and friends of the young man deserve a full investigation and the judgments that result.  The police officer deserves a full investigation and his rights under the law protected where indicated.

Nor is it possible for the prosecutor to be in charge of the matter when he is so closely tied to the police department that at the least has performed in an excessive force manner overall and with some obvious indicators of poor training.

I almost think the venue needs to move out of the state.

The officer is finished no matter the conclusion.  If he is sent to prison he will die.  If he is exonerated he is not safe in Ferguson and must find a place to live and work with reasonable safety.  I'd stay in hiding, too.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyThu Aug 21, 2014 1:37 pm

A policeman shoots a young black man in Ferguson, a tiny city that is nearly 70% black, and Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, the Attorney General of the United States show up and yell foal.  The President chimes in and debates whether to go to Ferguson or not.  There are riots and looting in protest demanding the arrest of the police officer before any investigation has taken place.

Question:  Where is all this interest in swift justice in Chicago, where a young black child is shot by gangbangers almost every day?  I guess it just isn’t as politically expedient or just doesn’t generate enough face time in the media.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyThu Aug 21, 2014 2:34 pm

The thing is, the unbalanced situation was already there. The emotions were already high or the incident would not have struck such a nerve.

I agree with DK. The case needs to be moved to a more neutral location. There are no simple answers.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyThu Aug 21, 2014 2:39 pm

8/21/2014

                  Why can't human beings be like this...Watch

     http://www.aol.com/article/2014/08/20/puppy-and-cheetah-cub-are-best-friends/20949961/?icid=maing-grid7%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl26%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D518030


                                                     Joe
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyThu Aug 21, 2014 6:37 pm

Ah, but when the cheetah is an adult, the puppy had better be long gone.  The wild is not always just either.  They operate mostly by instinct. 

To live in society, humans created religions and sectarian governments to overcome natural instincts.
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyThu Aug 21, 2014 6:48 pm

8/22/2014

                  That's why socities are being destroyed because people manipulate
               religion to their benefits, I'm sure one of these days God is going to
               get fed up and angry.......

                                                        Cheers....Joe
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


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Age : 85
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyThu Aug 21, 2014 10:43 pm

I believe that the lack of respect for those in authority, in this case the Police, is an important factor.  Yesterday I saw a video on FB where a policeman was punching a black woman as she lay on the ground.  I wondered what she said that caused the officer to “flip out”. 
I recalled and related to my wife an incident that happened years ago in York, PA.  I was home on leave from the USAF.  It was a hot August night and I slept in my under shorts.  A young couple was traveling through York and were staying overnight with my parents.  Joey parked his car in front of the house and had a rod in the backseat where he hung their clothes. 
In the middle of the night, my Dad shook me and said, “Abe, someone is breaking into Joey’s car.  I jumped out of bed, ran down the stairs, out the backdoor and as I came around to the front of the house, the thief had an arm full of clothes that he took from the car.  I picked up a brick from the sidewalk and as I came into view, the thief dropped the clothes in the middle of the street and took off running.  I leaped over the iron fence and pursued the thief.  I threw the brick and hit the kid squarely in the back, but with his forward motion it served to make him run faster.  I pursued him in my bare feet wearing just my jock shorts and across the next intersection.  I was gaining.  Someone came out of a bar and I yelled for them to stop the (man, kid, thief) I don’t recall what I said, but one of the men from the bar stepped in front of the thief and he fell to the ground.  I was on him, grabbed his arm into a hammer lock, put my arm around his neck and lifted him off the ground (pavement).  I marched him back to the scene of the crime.  He swore at me causing me to increase the pressure on the hammerlock.  When we arrived at the scene of the crime, a police car was there as well as the Mayor who lived next door.  The kid (thief) said pointing to me, “He tried to break my arm.”  The clothes were still lying in the street.  The police asked the kid for his ID and the kid refused.  The Officer asked the Mayor for permission to take the kid’s wallet and it was granted.  The officer noted that the kid was 17 years old - a minor.  He put the kid in the backseat of his car and left.  Sometime later, the officer returned and talked to my Dad.  He said that the kid called him all kinds of names, wanting the officer to react.  He said the kid was very smart and knew his rights.  He said that this was not the first time this kid was caught stealing and since he was a minor, he was turned over to the juvenile authorities.  They released him into the custody of his parents and the kid was back on the street again. 
The officer said:  “Tell your Son, the next time something like this happens, beat the shit out of the person and then call us.” 
I often thought about the incident and what I should have done.  I should have broken his arm.  At least he would have experienced some punishment for his crime.  The Police are restricted by law in how they handle a suspect.  When it comes to a minor, there is little they can do.  Sometimes the public can inflict justice swiftly and more effective than the law allows for those in authority. 
When I saw the video of the Policeman beating up on the woman, I wondered what the person did or said to cause this reaction.  With all the video cameras today, someone is likely to be filming.  Caution and restraint is a must.
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joefrank
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Ferguson, Missouri Empty
PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri EmptyFri Aug 22, 2014 6:21 am

8/22/2014

                  Abe..

                          Today victims have no rights, the criminals have all the
             rights, justice has become totally blind and in favor of the wrong
             ones.....
                                                    Joe
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PostSubject: Re: Ferguson, Missouri   Ferguson, Missouri Empty

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