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 Climate Change

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Don Stephens
Abe F. March
alj
Betty Fasig
Shelagh
joefrank
dkchristi
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dkchristi
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dkchristi


Number of posts : 8594
Registration date : 2008-12-29
Location : Florida

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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyTue May 06, 2014 5:06 pm

Shelagh, I was "tongue in cheek" teasing you about the ghosts in the forum.  I don't know what happened to my long post.  I must have deleted it myself.  It did not clearly refute your words as I teased above but did respond, anyway.  I like debating with you because you seek out facts rather than responding from a purely political or emotionally set perspective.  That forces me to check my sources and think about what I say.  Obviously, whatever I said in the lost post was not meant to be recorded :-) Very Happy
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


Number of posts : 10768
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Age : 85
Location : Germany

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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyTue May 06, 2014 10:24 pm

Climate Change is now the hot topic on CNN News.  Acknowledgement that it exists is a step forward to affecting change.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 1:58 am

It depends upon the governments of the day. You said that common sense was needed, Abe. Common sense tells us that climate change is only possible over a prolonged period of time. We can change our behaviour to make the world that we have created for ourselves (the delicate eco-balance that we have managed for thousands of years) but we cannot change the Earth's evolution. We are not God.
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 2:34 am

To use your response on another thread,  I don't agree.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 2:38 am

I know you don't. You think we are God.

Unlike you, on the other thread, I was joking.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 2:56 am

Are you claiming to know what I think?  That sounds like the work of a God.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 3:09 am

You did say that you didn't agree with my statement: "We are not God." Have you changed your mind? Is this Abe Change? Who's warming you up?
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 4:18 am

You are warming me up and I think it is time to cool down.  My response was not in part, but the entire statement.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 5:12 am

I don't believe anyone believes we are the soul agents of climate change. However we are a major contributor to many negative aspects of that change due to our wasteful and profiteering behaviors, thus positive changes in our personal and corporate behaviors will positively contribute to a better world in harmony with each other and the natural elements.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 6:26 am

dkchristi wrote:
I don't believe anyone believes we are the soul agents of climate change. However we are a major contributor to many negative aspects of that change due to our wasteful and profiteering behaviors, thus positive changes in our personal and corporate behaviors will positively contribute to a better world in harmony with each other and the natural elements.

... but shouldn't that be our aim irrespective of climate change?
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 7:10 am

Seems like some global cooling is just what is needed in the Eastern States of America:

http://www.climatecentral.org/news/northeast-braces-for-latest-blast-of-brutal-winter-weather-17059
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alj
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Location : San Antonio

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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 7:34 am

I worry about Lyn's dad. He lives alone now in a small town about 100 miles north if NYC. He is in his mid-80's and has a pacemaker. He drives down to the Newark area pretty frequently, to visit Lyn, Dave, and Jaycie, and does what he can to stay active, but even for a native New Yorker, these past winters that won't end is hard on him. I've asked Dave if they might convince him to move closer to them. Dave just laughs.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 8:01 am

I guess when you are as old as Dave's dad, you remember the record-breaking cold winters and record-breaking warm summers in just one area, and therefore have a grip on what climate change means locally. People who travel around and live in different areas of the United States don't have the same experience to draw upon.
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 8:40 am

The researcher in me led me to this site:

https://www.tradingfloor.com/posts/peak-oil-signals-worlds-least-know-521368144?utm_source=Outbrain&utm_medium=Native%20Advertising&utm_campaign=TF%20Beta%20Launch

From the above report, it would seem that oil production will decrease by the end of the century with or without public intervention. Oil reserves will not run out, and there will always be oil beneath the surface long after production ceases. When the cost of drilling for oil is greater than the revenue from the oil, it will be cheaper to leave the oil where it is -- as has happened to the coal industry.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 8:58 am

There is truth in that. My own experience is the opposite. I can count my "snows." The winter I was 5; the winter I was 16; my honeymoon in New Orleans; the first winter in our "dream home" ('73) The Houston ice storm of '88. One Wednesday morning this past February. I remember being without power because of snow laden pine branches falling onto power lines (for several years after, the limbs would be cut back, but after so many of no snow, the practice would stop, so that by the next time...); I remember trying to drive on icy streets without the proper tires, or the one time it was thick enough that my dad had to shovel the walkway and found the newspaper from three days earlier with the headlines: "Heavy snow here unlikely."

Mostly I remember the suffocating droughts alternating with the hurricanes and tropical storms.

The conditions here during the last four years are far more extreme than any in my 70 year memories.

But I am less concerned about why and more concerned about how do we deal with it, and is there anything we can do at this time to affect it.

And for some reason I am remembering a visit with "Doc" Klingle, who was the minister at the First Methodist Church in Orange during most of my married years. He was, without a doubt, my favorite "Man of God." It was just after David was born. I was still in the hospital, and we were standing outside the nursery looking at my first boy-child through the window. He was telling us about the woman who had run a red light and slammed into the front bumper of his car. She had said to him, "Well, Reverend; it was just God's will,,," when he cut her off and said, "Lady, He gets blamed for enough as it is. Don't try to put this off on Him, too."
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 9:20 am

Shelagh wrote:
The researcher in me led me to this site:

https://www.tradingfloor.com/posts/peak-oil-signals-worlds-least-know-521368144?utm_source=Outbrain&utm_medium=Native%20Advertising&utm_campaign=TF%20Beta%20Launch

From the above report, it would seem that oil production will decrease by the end of the century with or without public intervention. Oil reserves will not run out, and there will always be oil beneath the surface long after production ceases. When the cost of drilling for oil is greater than the revenue from the oil, it will be cheaper to leave the oil where it is -- as has happened to the coal industry.

We cross-posted, Shelagh.

Yes, the era of oil and gas being the primary energy source is coming to an end, as did the coal industry before it. That doesn't mean that those who make their money from oil and gas will be willing to let go and shift gears any time soon. They will hang on to it as long as they can, even though they know how much the pollution is harming our world.

During the 1950's my dad's livelihood shifted from designing tugboats and ferry boats to designing oil rigs, so he was heavily involved in that industry from then until his death in '82. His attitude was that he was doing a good thing, finding ways to get this necessary energy source from under our bodies of water in as safe a way as possible. Fortune Magazine once referred to his rigs as "The Caddilacs of offshore drilling," because they were among the sturdiest around, capable of operating safely in high seas and deep water. He took great pride in his work and I was proud to be his daughter.

People who have the power to influence the way energy is harnessed and used have a responsibility to the planet, to see that as little harm is done as possible. I sometimes wonder if those in control of this industry today are meeting that responsibility.

Just me, again.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 11:40 am

There seems to be confusion over "pollution" in connection with global warming. CO2 is a natural gas that plants rely upon for photosynthesis to take place. In return, plants give out oxygen. When people are sick, the recommendation is to remove plants from the room at night because photosynthesis stops in the absence of light and plants, like humans, take in oxygen. Talking to plants during the day isn't as daft as it sounds; breathing CO2 onto plants is beneficial for the plants. The extra CO2 emissions from burning fossil fuels are actually helping to increase crop yields.

Pollution of the sea, rivers and other waterways is a serious problem and harmful to wildlife. Oil spills are particularly harmful.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 2:21 pm

Policies adopted in the UK to improve air quality:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69340/pb13378-air-pollution.pdf
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dkchristi
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dkchristi


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 2:50 pm

Looks like your regulations are ahead of anything I have read here.  Perhaps I am wrong.  I haven't read the details of deterrents in the U.S.  Apparently, the U.K. has been on top of the climate change facts while the U.S. political parties beat it around.  It should not be a political issue; it is a science issue.

I heard today that big business in the U.S. is a afraid that protecting from climate change will bring about taxes on industry and energy production in particular.  Well, if they louse up the universe then they should pay for the damage.  That's  how it works in real life - what you destroy you have liability for.  You either fix it or get sued.

I don't think other countries are as litigious as the U.S. though.
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Shelagh
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Shelagh


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 3:45 pm

The US has a reputation for suing. If an American trips over his own shoelaces his first question is: "Who should I sue first? The shoe manufacturer or the laces manufacturer?"

In the UK, we are more likely to pick ourselves up from the floor, tie our shoelaces and get on with life.

At the moment, Americans want to blame someone for climate change and expect them to foot the bill instead of addressing and fixing the problem themselves. They want cheap gasoline and would refuse to pay extra purchase tax to cover the cost of reducing CO2 emissions. Obamacare is a farce when you consider the reluctance of Americans to pay taxes. Who pays? You can't take money out of the treasury if you don't put anything in.

In the UK, for petrol and diesel, fuel duty currently accounts for around 50% of the price at the pump (including VAT which is levied on the duty).

Read more at http://www.nextgreencar.com/car-tax/fuel-duty.php#MHlqRXVFIWCxXPEm.99

The burden on the NHS from smoking related diseases is so great that a heavy duty on cigarettes is required to cover the medical costs. Last year the treasury received £12.3 billion in tax duty and VAT:

http://www.the-tma.org.uk/tma-publications-research/facts-figures/tax-revenue-from-tobacco/
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dkchristi
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dkchristi


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 6:22 pm

I do agree with you on this one, Shelagh.  Our taxing system is way out of whack, favoring the wealthy with little or no taxes and burdening the working class with what taxes are in the system.  When I was working and making a decent income to cover basic living expenses and have some disposable, I often said I was willing to pay more tax to protect the environment, insure healthcare for everyone, food, shelter and education.  My acquaintances said I was nuts and should go live in Europe then where I could pay all the taxes I wanted to and not have the choices I have in the U.S.  Well, I see my choices as going broke from health risks, seeing hard working people struggling to make ends meet under the current tax structure and seeing a lousy K-12 education system only saved by the greatness of the post-secondary education system.  We have pockets of poverty and children who are hungry.  I am embarrassed.
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 9:19 pm

5/8/2014

               We could give up cars and use golf carts or bikes ? Then again
               how do we get our chores done ? Walk to the supermarket 3
               miles away and try to lug bags of groceries ? There must be a
               better solution....Men in this country love big cars and trucks,
               I remember it well when we had the embargo and gasoline was
               short 1978 , I had to sit on lines, people were saying we have to
               buy smaller cars, guess what , no one did, the cars got bigger.
               How come in Europe they drive small cars and here they refuse,
               I guess Americans will learn when the oil dries up or goes through
               the roof like $25.00 a gallon....

                                                        Cheers..Joe
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Abe F. March
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Abe F. March


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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyWed May 07, 2014 10:30 pm

Joe, most things in America is based on money.  Taxing gas seems to be a way to push for smaller, more efficient cars, however that doesn't seem to work.  The rich who can afford the higher cost will insist on larger, more powerful and comfortable cars that use more gas. Those who get hit the hardest are the people who can’t afford it.
You mentioned Europe.  In Europe, especially where I live, land is at a premium.  Conservation of farm land & forests are important.  Therefore people live in central locations where services are available.  That includes bus, train and other services for the home as with electricity and water.  In America, there is still an abundance of land.  People live in remote locations as a matter of choice.  They need transportation to get to the city center where services are available.  Building in a remote location is a choice and that choice can be detrimental in a number of ways as with road access, cutting down trees, plus the requirement for electricity and water.  If self-made, it requires an alternate energy source as with gasoline generators, digging wells, etc.  Home owners so removed are not close to public transportation.  I mention this since comparison to another country is not a one-on-one comparison.  As land becomes scarcer, it requires an adjustment in life style.  
From relatives and friends I know, they are not willing to adjust and feel that if they own a piece of land they can do with it what they want.  If they have money, they can spend it any way they desire.  It doesn’t matter if their actions may infringe on a neighbor or their fellow-man, it is everyone for himself.   
If you were to single out one specific natural resource that is needed for survival, what would that be?
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Shelagh
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyThu May 08, 2014 3:05 am

Abe F. March wrote:
Joe, most things in America is based on money.  Taxing gas seems to be a way to push for smaller, more efficient cars, however that doesn't seem to work.  The rich who can afford the higher cost will insist on larger, more powerful and comfortable cars that use more gas. Those who get hit the hardest are the people who can’t afford it.

This is no reason not to tax gasoline. All the European countries tax petrol. This spring, the Chancellor of the Exchequer came under pressure to reduce the tax duty on petrol. Here's a report that includes the amount of duty paid by other European countries, including Germany:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2571988/Fuel-tax-burden-UK-worst-Europe-triggering-calls-Osborne-cut-duty-3p-Budget.html

Abe F. March wrote:
If you were to single out one specific natural resource that is needed for survival, what would that be?

Water.

If global warming is a problem, it won't be solved by the American people. As Abe and DK have pointed out, Americans are not adept at sharing; their lifestyle is built upon self-dependency.

Solving GLOBAL warming requires COLLECTIVE responsibility.
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Climate Change   Climate Change - Page 7 EmptyThu May 08, 2014 6:38 am

I agree that water is the most important natural resource.  If there is any place to begin it is with making sure our water sources are clean.  Rivers and streams need to be kept clean.  We can rely on water stations to purify the water with questionable chemicals.  If the water is basically clean, boiling the water will kill off bad bacteria and make it safe to drink.  When the streams are polluted with run-offs that include oil and pesticides, boiling the water isn't going to purify it. 

I'm reminded of an incident here in Germany.

When I was looking for office space for Swan Technologies, I was taken from area to area by the Economic Development department.  We drove past the former US Airfield in Saarbrucken that had been closed when there was a draw-down by the US.  The airbase was closed.  The man told me that I could buy it for a Mark – the German currency before the Euro.  A Mark was worth about 25 cents.  He said that with the purchase, however one would have to sign a contract to clean it up and that was estimated to be in the hundreds of millions.  He relayed to me various things about the pollution and how it affected the surrounding communities.  When the Air Base was active, they didn’t use established methods of protection, i.e., oil from the planes was drained directly on the ground and that seeped into the water supply.  The environmental department connected the increase of cancer in the area to the water supply that was attributed to the airbase.  Clean up was eventually done by the government and it is now a business complex.
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