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 Why do we have to have "bad guys"?

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dkchristi
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alj
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PostSubject: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 8:48 am

Here's an answer that Kris Kristofferson gave several years ago.

It still resonates with me.

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twm
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 9:45 am

Yin/yang, cosmic balance, etc.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 10:04 am

twm wrote:
Yin/yang, cosmic balance, etc.
Where does the concept of "badness" fit into these balanced concepts?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 11:37 am

Without good, we cannot know evil. Without evil, there cannot have good. We have bad guys simply because there can be or maybe should be.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 11:50 am

Good and evil are matters of opinion, culture and experience.  The "id" wants for itself and will do whatever it takes to meet its needs.  Society trains the "id" to go beyond self-need.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 12:14 pm

twm wrote:
Without good, we cannot know evil. Without evil, there cannot have good. We have bad guys simply because there can be or maybe should be.
Good and evil are value concepts.  Yin and yang are not about value, but about complementarity. One aspect is not better or worse than the other.  The same is true of "balance," cosmic or otherwise  Balance is equality.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 12:28 pm

dkchristi wrote:
Good and evil are matters of opinion, culture and experience.  The "id" wants for itself and will do whatever it takes to meet its needs.  Society trains the "id" to go beyond self-need.
  Exactly.

And society is a group, with members who belong and are OK and outsiders who are not OK.

Survival within the group depends on being seen as OK.  Fear of being Not OK is what causes the "ego" to go into overload.  It focuses on itself as a separate individual rather than as a member of a group.

(And yes, I read Thomas A. Harris.)


Last edited by alj on Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 12:28 pm

Good and evil are value qualities, they are also balance qualities. Do you not think good and evil are  complimentary?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 12:40 pm

Where is the value judgement in black/white or male/female?  These are complementarities on a spectrum.  One side is not better or worse than the other.

When we separate people into OK and Not OK we are stating opinions based on a value perspective.  That judgement is not part of the yin/yang concept.

Why do we need to "have someone to be better than"?

When will we begin to see that humanity is a unified whole?
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 4:06 pm

Good in what is normal. Bad is not normal. There has to be a guide line for what is good. Outside of this, is bad.

Man has made rules, and many break the rules. Mans rules do not work. In our point in human history, it can be said, “Man has made every kind of rule thinkable…none of these have worked.” Does that say, “Man can not guide their own steps?”

For man to be good, man must learn to love the law. Those who refuse to love the law can not live with those who do. For this it takes a power greater than man.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 6:11 pm

Can you define "normal"?   Where do you draw the line between normal and bad?

I agree that there are Universal Laws.  With the discovery of the quantum, early in the 20th century, we came to a place where we had to redefine our understanding of those laws.  Matter does not conform to the "rules" we had believed to be constant.  The old rules no longer apply, at least not in the ways we had defined them.

I am not trying to change your mind, Domenic.  You are entitled to your perspective.  These comments are not about you.

The thing is, none of us can possibly hold a complete picture of Reality.  We only have our little pieces that we picked up through our individual experiences.  We can come closer to a valid picture when we agree to stay open, and start putting our little pieces together.  That way we can envision a bigger piece, but the Univers is so vast and limitless, we will never grasp the whole of it.  

Another thing is, we have reached a point where we can no longer see our planet as consisting of separate entities which must vie for control.  Our knowledge of our world has expanded to the point where we must recognize that we are all one.  This does not mean that we should form a one world government.  That would be impossible to maintain.

We simply need to recognize that we each have a different, limited perspective, and that the perspectives of other groups are as valid as our own.  We need to understand that there is enough stuff to go around, and that we do not need to hoard and defend against "outsiders"  We can live and let live, and not only survive but thrive in doing so.

Early Hebrews wore phylacteries - tiny boxes containing miniature scrolls of the ten commandments.  They wore them, tied with strings that reached around their heads, on the center of their foreheads.  The prophets said that the day would come when the law was written in their hearts, rather than on their foreheads.

The heart is the seat of compassion, and when compassion becomes the deciding factor, when justice and mercy are in balance, we will, maybe, have reached that point.

And once that happens, we won't need to have bad guys to project our guilty feelings onto.

Just me.
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 8:31 pm

The following is not about any one on this forum, or visitor who reads the following, nor designed to change any bodies course of thinking.

The condition, state, and order of the universe, has nothing to do with the heart of man.

A good heart of a human, is a person who attempts to function, under a set of laws set down by the creator of man. A bad heart condition is a human who’s heart sets their own course of action.

Since no human can see the heart of any other, only the creator of the human family can judge who is following his laws out of love, and those who reject their position before him.

Those who reject a God who created them for his purpose, project a heart condition in rebellion. These follow man made gods, or theories.


Just me, and others who believe as I do.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 8:51 pm

3/28/2014

                  I photographed this last Saturday, this is good over evil.
                  for some reason the photo thing won't upload !!!

                                        Cheers......Joe
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyThu Mar 27, 2014 11:24 pm

Interesting discussion about good –vs. - evil.  Who decides what is good or evil?  Is using an outdated book that served man thousands of years ago right for today?
Taking just one statement “Thou shalt not kill” has numerous interpretations.  Kill as in murder?  Kill as in war?  Kill for food?  What does “kill” means exactly? Any interpretation is conjecture or assumption.  How can one make law on guesswork?
 
I saw an amusing cartoon where a man of the church was talking to a Native American.  He told the NA that what he was doing was sinful and he would not go to heaven.  The NA asked, “What if I didn’t know it was wrong?  Would I not go to heaven?”  The Priester said, “If you didn’t know, then you would go to heaven.”  The NA replied, “Then why did you tell me?”  Sending missionaries to spread Christianity to those without knowledge of Christ can be good or bad depending on one’s perspective.  Evil is often in the eye of the beholder.  Natives who don’t wear clothes is considered wrong to an outsider.  It is wrong only in the eyes of the beholder.  In the case of the Priest and the NA, the Priest made his own belief/assumption.
 
We hear talk about how we are all connected – and we are, IMV.  The Atoms within us are also in the Universe.  Are we in the Universe or is the Universe in us?  I think it goes both ways.
If that is true, then what we do has an effect on our Universal Spirit and that Spirit can signal us.  I’m of the opinion that the Spirit (God) talks to us with prompts as in that “Gut feeling”. 
How often have we done something or thought of doing something and it just didn’t feel right?  Our “Gut” (Spirit) was telling us not to do it or that it was wrong.  My observation or belief on this is right for me.  It can be construed as my own guess work/assumption just as any other drawn conclusions.
 
The challenge of beliefs causes one to think and thinking can produce doubt.  Seeking answers rather than accepting someone else’s conclusion can create new insights.
 
Our experiences do affect how we think and/or what we believe.  What is right for me is not necessarily right for someone else.
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 5:19 am

Abe, you said;

"We hear talk about how we are all connected – and we are, IMV.  The Atoms within us are also in the Universe.  Are we in the Universe or is the Universe in us?  I think it goes both ways."

Lets us assume this statement is true. My car is made of the same Atoms. Is my car alive? Does it think?
Just because my car is made of the same building blocks, does it make it a living thing?

God told Adam he would go back to the dirt where he came from...is the dirt alive, or just made from the same building blocks as everything else?
I agree, all things are made from Atoms. Would you want to be a rock? Our thinking is also made from the same atoms...without thought, is there life?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 5:34 am

alj wrote:
Where is the value judgement in black/white or male/female?  These are complementarities on a spectrum.  One side is not better or worse than the other.

When we separate people into OK and Not OK we are stating opinions based on a value perspective.  That judgement is not part of the yin/yang concept.

Why do we need to "have someone to be better than"?

When will we begin to see that humanity is a unified whole?

I see humanity as a unified mass already. I also see good and evil in equal proportion in the same thing.

The universe is made of complimentary things, matter/antimatter, light/dark, etc, yet we don't separate it into two different things, it's one thing.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 6:11 am

Abe,


Many believe that a spirit lives on after we die. Man has always wondered, “What becomes of us when we die?” Solomon answered that question when he wrote:



“For the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” This was written by Solomon in the year 1,000 BCE. Today we call this brain dead. How did Solomon know this? It is part of the Bible. (Ecclesiastes 9:5) The world did not know this until modern times. The dead have no thought. The building blocks of our thinking are also made of Atoms…the building block of everything. When we die our body goes back to dust, and our thoughts are no more. That is the condition of the dead…sure, the Atoms don’t die, but they are no longer in an arrangement that makes up who we were. We don’t go off into the universe as a thinking person. If I leave my car out in the desert, overtime it will rust, and go back to being a part of the earth, from which it came…it’s Atoms have been changed back to what they were…dirt. Man was taken from the earth…he also goes back to being dirt.



People can believe whatever they want. Below is proof, “In death, we are conscious of nothing at all.” For those who believe we become part of the universe, and have this greater life…where is the proof?







 



Electroencephalography



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia





History[[url=/w/index.php?title=Electroencephalography&action=edit§ion=1]edit[/url]]



The following history of EEG is detailed by Barbara Swartz in Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology.[url=/ cite_note-4][4][/url] In 1875, [url=/wiki/Richard_Caton]Richard Caton[/url] (1842–1926), a physician practicing in [url=/wiki/Liverpool]Liverpool[/url], presented his findings about electrical phenomena of the exposed cerebral hemispheres of rabbits and monkeys in the British Medical Journal. In 1890, Polish physiologist [url=/wiki/Adolf_Beck_(physiologist)]Adolf Beck[/url] published an investigation of spontaneous electrical activity of the brain of rabbits and dogs that included rhythmic oscillations altered by light.



[url=/wiki/File:HansBerger_Univ_Jena.jpeg]Hans Berger [/url]





In 1912, Russian physiologist [url=/wiki/Vladimir_Pravdich-Neminsky]Vladimir Vladimirovich Pravdich-Neminsky[/url] published the first animal EEG and the [url=/wiki/Evoked_potential]evoked potential[/url] of the [url=/wiki/Mammal]mammalian[/url] (dog).[url=/ cite_note-5][5][/url] In 1914, [url=/wiki/Napoleon_Cybulski]Napoleon Cybulski[/url] and Jelenska-Macieszyna photographed EEG-recordings of experimentally induced seizures.



EEG in 1924.[url=/ cite_note-6][6][/url] Expanding on work previously conducted on animals by Richard Caton and others, Berger also invented the electroencephalogram (giving the device its name), an invention described "as one of the most surprising, remarkable, and momentous developments in the history of clinical neurology".[url=/ cite_note-7][7][/url] His discoveries were first confirmed by British scientists [url=/wiki/Edgar_Douglas_Adrian]Edgar Douglas Adrian[/url] and B. H. C. Matthews in 1934 and developed by them.



In 1934, Fisher and Lowenback first demonstrated epileptiform spikes. In 1935 Gibbs, Davis and Lennox described inter[url=/wiki/Ictal]ictal[/url] spike waves and the 3 cycles/s pattern of clinical [url=/wiki/Absence_seizure]absence seizures[/url], which began the field of clinical electroencephalography. Subsequently, in 1936 Gibbs and Jasper reported the interictal spike as the focal signature of epilepsy. The same year, the first EEG laboratory opened at Massachusetts General Hospital.



Franklin Offner (1911–1999), professor of biophysics at [url=/wiki/Northwestern_University]Northwestern University[/url] developed a prototype of the EEG that incorporated a piezoelectric inkwriter called a Crystograph (the whole device was typically known as the Offner Dynograph).



In 1947, The American EEG Society was founded and the first International EEG congress was held. In 1953 Aserinsky and Kleitman described REM sleep.



In the 1950s, [url=/wiki/William_Grey_Walter]William Grey Walter[/url] developed an adjunct to EEG called [url=/w/index.php?title=EEG_topography&action=edit&redlink=1]EEG topography[/url], which allowed for the mapping of electrical activity across the surface of the brain. This enjoyed a brief period of popularity in the 1980s and seemed especially promising for psychiatry. It was never accepted by neurologists and remains primarily a research tool.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 7:21 am

Abe, good post.

Generally speaking, I would like to get back the the thread's title, which referred specifically to 
"bad guys."  As in people. Not rocks; not even Universal concepts.  Each individual human being is capable of doing both goood and bad, and each of us will do both at some point.  We are combinations of light and dark.  The problem begins when we attempt to see ourselves as "good" and project our "bad" qualities onto others.  We make judgements out of our own fear.  We attempt to make "absolutes" and arbitrarily decide what qualities ought to be labeled as good or bad.  But those value judgements are based on prejudices and limited perceptions.  Take any positive quality, carry it to its extreme, and it becomes negative.  Values change with time and circumstances.

This was the point Kristofferson was making in "Jesus was a Capricorb"  Labeling others as bad can help us feel better about ourselves.  But it ultimately leads us to isolating "enemies" and creating wars.
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 7:56 am

A rock as well as a tree are living things.  One we can observe one growing and the other we cannot.
The ability to think IMV doesn't determine whether something is alive or not.  If you believe in science then you must accept what science has proved.  We don't have to see something to believe it.  You have not seen God, yet you believe he exists.  Is it possible that your car exists because of the atoms it contains?  What components hold it together?  What are the substances incorporated into the steel, the rubber and everything else that makes up a car?  The particles may have been altered, but within those particles contain the basic elements.

No, I'm not a scientist and do not intend to debate science.  My conclusions may be wrong, but they satisfy me.  I know what I know and know what I don't know.  Having said that, what I think I know may be flawed in the eyes of someone else, but is clear to me.

Good & bad, right & wrong differ with culture.  If you're a Texan, it is assumed that you endorse capital punishment.  How does someone who believes in capital punishment interpret "Thou Shalt not kill"?  I haven't read footnotes in the Bible that lists exceptions to general statements.
I often wonder how many people would be alive today if Old Testament laws were enforced. 

 
Here are just some of the things in the Old Testament that I find interesting:
 
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-1
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 7:58 am

alj wrote:
Abe, good post.

Generally speaking, I would like to get back the the thread's title, which referred specifically to 
"bad guys."  As in people. Not rocks; not even Universal concepts.  Each individual human being is capable of doing both goood and bad, and each of us will do both at some point.  We are combinations of light and dark.  The problem begins when we attempt to see ourselves as "good" and project our "bad" qualities onto others.  We make judgements out of our own fear.  We attempt to make "absolutes" and arbitrarily decide what qualities ought to be labeled as good or bad.  But those value judgements are based on prejudices and limited perceptions.  Take any positive quality, carry it to its extreme, and it becomes negative.  Values change with time and circumstances.

This was the point Kristofferson was making in "Jesus was a Capricorb"  Labeling others as bad can help us feel better about ourselves.  But it ultimately leads us to isolating "enemies" and creating wars.
What is a Capricorb? Did you mean Capricorn? You seem to make "absolutes" of what you believe, and judge others as wrong. Yet you show no proof of your theories about life, death, good, and bad. Can you not prove the things you say? You present yourself as one who understands how, and why humans think and act as they do...where did you get this training...my understanding you were just a school teacher?
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Domenic Pappalardo
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 8:06 am

Abe F. March wrote:
A rock as well as a tree are living things.  One we can observe one growing and the other we cannot.
The ability to think IMV doesn't determine whether something is alive or not.  If you believe in science then you must accept what science has proved.  We don't have to see something to believe it.  You have not seen God, yet you believe he exists.  Is it possible that your car exists because of the atoms it contains?  What components hold it together?  What are the substances incorporated into the steel, the rubber and everything else that makes up a car?  The particles may have been altered, but within those particles contain the basic elements.

No, I'm not a scientist and do not intend to debate science.  My conclusions may be wrong, but they satisfy me.  I know what I know and know what I don't know.  Having said that, what I think I know may be flawed in the eyes of someone else, but is clear to me.

Good & bad, right & wrong differ with culture.  If you're a Texan, it is assumed that you endorse capital punishment.  How does someone who believes in capital punishment interpret "Thou Shalt not kill"?  I haven't read footnotes in the Bible that lists exceptions to general statements.
I often wonder how many people would be alive today if Old Testament laws were enforced. 

 
Here are just some of the things in the Old Testament that I find interesting:
 
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-1

Abe, these were laws made by the Jews, not God. Jesus rejected all of these, and the Jews wanted him dead for that. If you read laws the Jews made up, you should also read what Jesus said about those man made laws.
As to your being happy with what, and how you believe...that is between you, and you.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 8:14 am

Domenic, define "proof."  What constitutes proof?
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 8:28 am

Follow up to my post.
We hear people say that they believe that the Bible is the Word of God and that they believe the Bible from cover to cover.  Even Politicians say that.  They lie.
Define “Work”.  If working on the Sabbath is a sin and a reason to kill someone, what about the Farmers that feed and milk their cattle?  Is the person that prepares your Sunday meal working?  If you eat out on Sunday to avoid work at home, are the people who prepare the food being paid to work?  Are you supporting the forbidden work ethic by eating?  Do you purchase anything on a Sunday? 
 
As for sin, when the people wanted to stone the woman, Jesus is claimed to have said:  “You who are without sin, cast the first stone.”  What did he mean by that?  Was he forgiving the woman or trying to make a point? 
 
Follow your gut feeling and dismiss man-made as well as religious doctrines. 
You know what is right for you.  Don’t condemn others for their way of life.  More recently there has been much to do about how the Muslim women are treated and we feel we must do something to change their ways.  If they are happy and content or accept their status in life, let them alone.  Trying to force what we think is “right” on others, in my view, is wrong.
We have enough wrong with our country and ourselves that we have no right to judge others. 
 
Whatever you believe, don’t tell it, show it.  Does your life reflect your beliefs?
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 8:46 am

3/28/2014

                   Here is good over evil I photographed last Saturday.

                                     Cheers..Joe ... Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Why do we have to have "bad guys"?   Why do we have to have "bad guys"? EmptyFri Mar 28, 2014 9:15 am

A few comments and questions:

Jesus was a Capricorn.  Jesus was also a Jew.

I am a Texan.  I do not believe in capital punishment.

I was employed as a teacher for 25 years, but I am not "just a teacher."  I am a student involved in lifelong learning.  When I want to know about a thing, I study it. I read; I ask questions.

Good and bad are abstract ideas.

Proving a thing involves finding material evidence.  

How does one "prove" an abstract idea?

How does one pick and choose which parts of a book are true and which are not true?

How do we determine the value of a particular thing or idea?

How does one decide whether an idea or a thing is good or bad?

How is it possible for an individual to love the place they live even when that individual does not approve of all of its laws and customs?  Does loving the place make that individual a bad person?

What if it were not about a place but about religious convictions?  Do all people who belong to a particular group believe the same things in precisely the same way?

Why must we have to have "somebody to look down on"?
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