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 GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !

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Abe F. March
alj
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Abe F. March
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 10:44 am

Right, Ann.  Good and evil are similar to love and hate.  Both are powerful forces.  People tend to go for the strong over the weak. Sometimes it is in the presentation.  Speaking with a loud or powerful voice -vs- a soft and timid voice. 
I had a Greek friend who, when he wanted to make a point or to be right, spoke very loud.  Many believed him because he seemed so sure of himself and came across strong.  In fact, he was all BS.  

A voice of reason doesn't need to be loud, however one must remember what sells.  People have been sold lies for so long that they believe them.  It is so frustrating not to know how to right this wrong.
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 11:01 am

Elizabeth Warren is one of the smart ones, worthy of attention who does not live in a bubble.

The thought that started "Obamacare" was that the hatred for President Obama would pour into hating "Obamacare."  However, President Obama was smart and took it on as a compliment that his name was put on the Affordable Care Act.  Those that hate Obamacare also hate President Obama and listen to the likes of LImbaugh, Beck and FOX, the spreaders of "Zombie Lies" along with some very right wing conservative bloggers.  Those people never call it the Affordable Care Act.

Therefore, the Affordable Care Act name is less well-known associated with the venom and lies so people think it's okay.
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 11:15 am

Agree, and we will continue to fight this battle as long as we see it as a battle
.
That is especially true when it becomes a battle between good and evil. Groups with differing positions will always need to see their own as good and their opponents' as evil, when the truth is, they are merely looking at the situation from differing perspectives. It begins, I think, with differing religious perspectives, and that comes from a fear of hell, as opposed to recognizing the love of God, which must involve all of creation.

We all have dark sides. They are not evil. They are the parts of us that our limited religious perspectives feel compelled to see as evil, so that they become, in our minds, something to be denied and projected onto an outside other that must be eliminated. We believe that if we eliminate the other, we will eliminate that side of our own personality.

The truth is that those rejected parts generally hold the means for us to get beyond the polarities and find our center. When we operate from that center, we have no need for fear - no need for enemies or opposition. We eliminate the fear of other when we accept it as an essential part of who we, as individuals, are, and that it is actually a positive thing, because it helps us to find our center.

As long as we believ in the illusions of separate and distinct Heavens and Hells, we will be trapped in that illusion, and we will be compelled to defeat that enemy, rather than admit that it is simply a different perspective of our won selves.

More and more people come to that realization every day.

There is no point in feeling fear over this shutdown. We don't have the answers. The Universe knows what it is doing, and we, as humans, are learning so much from this circumstance.

How can we see it than other than good?
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 11:23 am

dkchristi wrote:
Elizabeth Warren is one of the smart ones, worthy of attention who does not live in a bubble.

The thought that started "Obamacare" was that the hatred for President Obama would pour into hating "Obamacare."  However, President Obama was smart and took it on as a compliment that his name was put on the Affordable Care Act.  Those that hate Obamacare also hate President Obama and listen to the likes of LImbaugh, Beck and FOX, the spreaders of "Zombie Lies" along with some very right wing conservative bloggers.  Those people never call it the Affordable Care Act.

Therefore, the Affordable Care Act name is less well-known associated with the venom and lies so people think it's okay.
Yeah.

Annie
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joefrank
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 11:26 am

10/2/2013

                 I don't know one person who looks up to politicians, me, I think their corrupt,
                 a good friend of mine twenty years ago told me something interesting and I
                 believe it. " They dazzle you with their intellect and baffle you with their bullshit."
                 I believe they tell the public what they want to hear, you have to be very good to
                 bamboozle the public.

                                                             Cheers...Joe...Very Happy
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alj
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 11:35 am

Thing is, Joe, that we are a representative democracy. We elect our representatives and they make the decisions. There are too many of us for each of us to have an immediate voice, so we choose the people who represent us.

That means that we are each, individually, ultimately respinsible. We need to know who we are voting for, because we are giving them our rights to a voice. When we give our vote, we are giving ourselves, and we need to know whom it is we are giving it too.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 11:41 am

We have what's left of "representative democracy."  Unfortunately, with our campaign laws controlled by the lobbyists, it has become representative of the lobbyists and big money rather than the people.

Only by changing the campaign laws can we attempt to wrestle back representatives who carry our wishes to congress instead of their desperation to get re-elected to their cushy jobs.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 11:43 am

The representatives have a contract with the U.S. citizens to do the nation's business.  That contract needs to include non-performance clauses like a highway contract.  If they don't prepare a budget to meet the needs of the nation timely, they lose their own salary and are fined for each additional day it takes to reach a consensus budget.

Of course, since they vote for their own salaries, work conditions and benefits, that'll happen on a cold day.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 12:01 pm

And we need to recognize that our elected officials may not be able to deliver on everything they would like to be able to.  Once in office, they become privy to things they did not know before, and they also have to deal with their other representatives who have different perspectives and equal votes.   We are just not going to get what we wnat on every issue.

Put that up against those who helped them get elected, and have their priorities.

That is, of course, where the revision of election campaign policy comes in.  It is certainly a priority.

I still think, though, is that we need to understand that we get what we pay for.  It is our responsibiity as voters to learn as much as possible about the people we give our votes to.

Look into their past.  Have they always been honest people?  What was their record before this election campaign? Once we cast our vote, we have to let go, and let our representatives do the job we elected the to do.  We can keep in touch by contacting them about our feelings and preferences, and they need to take those into account, but they are ultimatelu the ones who have to cast the vote, and that is an awesome responsibility.  They represent a lot of individuals with differing views.  They cannot make all of us happy.

The media have an agenda, and we need to be aware of what they are so that we can make as objective a decision as possible.

Voting is at least as much as responsibility as a right.  If we blew our vote, we need to own that.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 12:29 pm

10/2/2013

                       dk..

                            I like that law ! And get rid of the lobbyists make it a law
                            so that it's illegeal followed by a million dollar fine and jail
                            time , maybe 10 yrs , no politician would ever take money
                            ever again !

                                                                    Cheers...Joe...Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 1:39 pm

It's a discussion that has gone on since there was a USofA.

This version occurred (fictionally) in 1852:


Quote :


Jake lay on the blanket with his head in Karin's lap, reading the words of their fellow Texan, Sam Houston, from a folded newspaper:  "There are but six men belonging to the Whig party in Texas, one of whom was a horse thief - another a black-leg - a third a land grabber, and the other three were mere tools and understrappers of the first three named,..."
"Is that damned thing still around?  It’s a rehash from the last election," snapped Daniel, who lay leaning on his elbow next to Maria, who sat near a food basket, putting away some of the leftover ham that had been part of the sumptuous picnic.
"I don’t know, Daniel," Jake drawled, "I can't help wonderin', which one are you, the horse thief or the land grabber."
"According to our current governor and his cohorts, they could both be either one of us."
"Except it clearly says 'Whig' Daniel."  Jake pointed to the paper, "and we both know that I'm a Democrat."
"Who ought to know better.  Karin," he added, turning to the pretty blonde, "haven’t you been able to talk sense to him?"
"Daniel," Karin smiled, "what has a woman to do with politics?"
"You would, if this country had sense enough to allow you to vote."
"Well, we can agree on that one, anyway," Jake broke in.  "Look, Daniel, before this country became a state, politics were simple:  You supported Sam Houston or you didn’t."
"And then Sam chose political clout over philosophy.  That’s why I could never be a politician.  You have to sell your soul to get votes."
"And without votes, you don’t get elected, and if you don’t get elected, what good can you do?... 
 

 And it was still going o  a good five years later:
 



Quote :
The bluebonnets were still blooming, here on this hill, in and among the rocks, the yucca plants, and the scraggily mesquite trees.  There was a light breeze.  It was still spring, for a while longer, before the summer heat, and the two families were enjoying a pleasant lull.
Even the grown men, who were mimicking the boys rough and tumble behavior with their game of words, seemed pleasant.  Maria had long since realized that the arguments Daniel and Jake continued to hold when they had time to relax together was not a thing to worry about.  The topics they discussed were another matter, but it was just too good a day to worry about the future.
"He's going to lose this election, Jake."
"This is Sam Houston we're talking about, Daniel."
"He played around with those Know-nothings and the American Party when he supported Dickson in the last election.  American party,"  Daniel shook his head.  "White Americans, they mean.  They call themselves 'native-born' but deny the rights of the real natives here, along with any immigrants who didn't come from England."
"He didn't have a whole lot of choices."
"Jake, your son is half German. I, your friend, am half Comanche, and my wife is whole Spanish.  If the American Party takes hold here, what will that mean for all of us?"
"I agree, and if I thought Houston felt that way, he wouldn't have my support."
"Sam is being Sam.  He will back whoever will promise him the most votes."
"We have to get elected if we are going to hold a public office, Daniel."
"I didn't see you having any trouble in the last election here in Sandy Creek.  The town was pretty quick to show you their support without you having make promises you didn't plan on keeping."
"I ran for County Sheriff, Daniel.  What other fool was willing to run against me."
"That's not the point."
"That's beside the point and you know it.  How about you? I don't hear you going out and campaigning for Hardin Runnels."
"Hell, no.  He'd have Calhoun's policies overrunning the state. Secession would be a given, and we would be at war for certain."
"So, Daniel, who do you support?"
"You know I'll be voting for Houston - for governor," he added emphatically, and then, even more emphatically, "this election.  And I'll do what I can to get a bigger following for the Republican Party by the next presidential election."
"And you'll have as much success as you had with the Whig's.  Democrats run this state, Daniel, whether we like it or not."
"One quarter of the population should not make policies for the other seventy-five percent of us."
"They have the means; they have the power."
Daniel shook his head again.  "Extremists - on both ends - are running this country, and they're running it straight into the ground."
"No argument there.  It looked, for a while after 1850 and the Compromise, that we were working toward a solution, but that ended last year."
"When Congress passed the Kansas-Nebraska Act, they threw the whole country into chaos.  Democrats, Whigs, both split on the slavery issue, Calhoun and the Southern Democrats managing to take control of the one while the other faltered."
"And Sam's opposition to it has damaged his chances here in Texas.  The Union is in real trouble."
"I find myself thinking more in terms of when the war comes, rather than if.  There will be some hard decisions to be made, Jake, especially here in the hills."
"All I know is that I can't fight for any man's right to own another. The South is intent on pushing its citizens into taking that stand.  I won't be able to stand with them, that's certain."

Daniel nodded.  He and his friend might argue fine points, but neither of them questioned where the other stood on the issue of slavery.  The South had harnessed itself to this evil, and were bent on forcing it on to the rest of the country. The real battle, they both knew, was between the old agricultural world and the new industrial one, and they both knew which would eventually win.  They were both southerners, aware that the world thay had grown up in was no longer viable, and they differed only, when they differed, in their ideas about how to get through the chaos of these changing times.  All Daniel knew was that he was bound to this valley, and to protecting its secrets.  And he knew that, even though Jake knew nothing about those secrets, his friend would stand with him.

(Scenes from Redstone's Valley) It helps to remember that the political [philosophies of the Democrats and Republicans were completely reversed from their stands of today.  Democrat meant conservative and Republican/Whig meant liberal


The point is, it's an age-old dilemma.  We aren't about to find an easy answer, other than to recognize our own responsibility and work as best we can within the limitations of the system

Some years ago, while major TV shows were still broadcast in black and white, there was a series based loosely on the Texas legislature.  Richard Crenna played the lead role, and provided the voice-over for the opening of each segment:  "Democracy is a very bad form of government.  What we must remember is that all the others are so much worse."
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dkchristi
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 2:05 pm

In 1985, my colleagues and I supported a young, Republican candidate for congressional office.  He was a social service minded person with the good of the community in his heart, a good local Catholic young man who believed in governing his life by his principles and the nation by what was best for the people.  We loved him.  He was handsome, charming, smart and cared about the people.

He was elected.  Within six months he didn't speak to any of us except at fund raisers and to request that we schedule more fund raisers.  He forgot about the needs of our community and became a patsy to lobbyists.  He participated in the passage of laws that were against everything he promised in his relationship with our group and the citizens who elected him.

He later became a Senator and seldom graced our town except for fund raisers.  We no longer existed.  His time was reserved for big money, not big needs.  He started out one of us and ended up making our lives more difficult by the policies he promoted to get the big campaign dollars from the national pots.  He ignored community needs, environmental issues and all the promises made.

That's an aberrant system that takes representatives and turns them into national lobbyist minions.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 2:21 pm

I think that is one of those things that Richard Crenna's character was addressing.

Jake Holder, in RV, sumed it up:

And without votes, you don’t get elected, and if you don’t get elected, what good can you do?...


And again, here:

"Sam is being Sam.  He will back whoever will promise him the most votes."
"We have to get elected if we are going to hold a public office, Daniel."

It's inherent in the system, and the larger the group, the more likely it is that some of those we elect will disappoint us.

But social groups that disdain politicians seem to go along with those that disdain teachers, with similar results.  You get what you believe you will get.

Change your beliefs and change the results.  Expect a positive response and you will be far more likely to get one.

Accept the responsibility that goes with voting in a representative demodracy.

Just me.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 2:50 pm

We believed in our candidate.  We knew his family and his background.  He had great promise though quite young.  The thrill of power and the desire to keep it ruled his decisions, not our belief in him.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 3:23 pm

Sounds a bit like one George Herbert Bush, when I met him back in 1970.  I believed he was honest at the time.  Maybe he was.  I would like to believe I was not fooled. But there have been stories that have surfaced since, about the family and its connections that make me wonder. We do the best we can. Sometimes we get fooled. What did Lincoln say about not being able to fool all the people all the time?  Situations like this latest have a way of waking people up to reality. What are our choices? Do we do away with representative democracy altogether?  What would replace it?

I don't claim to have answwrs here; jut asking questions.
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PostSubject: Re: GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN !   GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 EmptyWed Oct 02, 2013 3:57 pm

10/2/2013

                  I think that's the way they are virgin to start and then they go to political school
                  and change in no time, reminds me of retail, a salesperson who's sweet and caring
                  about their workers is promoted to manager, we'll evidently they go through that
                  door and come out the Stepford Politician, no feelings, no morals, sometimes I
                  think they sell their souls to the devil to become a politician , me I would never
                  make it because they would destroy me because of my willingness to help others.
                  Oh yes before I forget on Oct. 17th is the debt ceiling limit to be raised the bastards
                  have vowed to not raise the debt ceiling...!!!

                                                             Cheers...Joe..GOVERNMENT SHUT DOWN HAS BEGUN ! HORRORS HAVE BEGUN ! - Page 2 925501
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